Green Day - Art history and a theoretical superstructure of punk

[desertrose]

 

Power chords and Pollock: Art history and a theoretical superstructure of punk

Watching a Rancid and Green Day concert, I note their parallels to the Abstract Expressionists and beyond

When Green Day took the stage, the dynamic of the show was transformed completely. Billie Joe is one part evangelist (against everything Evangelicals stand for), one part politician and several parts rock god.

http://www.salon.com/2017/06/18/on-power-chords-and-pollock-art-history-and-a-theoretical-superstructure-of-punk/

[herewegoagain]

I know nothing about art history, but nice read!

The comments section begs to differ, of course

[Beerjeezus]

I had to google the paintings because I know nothing about art...interesting comparisons  I loved the article, though. Pretty good observations as well.

the comment section is getting wild!  

[Marki.]

This was such a great article, so well written. I loved reading it, the comparisons of different kinds of art are really unusual and interesting to think about.

Seems like people in the comments really don't agree, though  

[Jimmy Strummer]

Funny that this was featured on Salon.com which recently had featured a pretty transparent and thoughtless article about how Sgt. Pepper's is sexist towards women.

[Chin for a Day]

I think that was my favorite article ever written about the band.  I love art and art history.  Comparing AI to Guernica is just simply brilliant.   

[jengd]

Great article, thanks for sharing.

[Hermione]

That was a joy to read, really interesting and original comparisons

And the snobby comments are a bonus  

[lizziebix]

Great read. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

[DeJennsitized]

That last paragraph  

"The character persona of Billie Joe Armstrong on stage, with his nasal voice, is the bratty little brother who has been dismissed as a loser, but who is far more clever than anyone imagines, and holds a flame of genius cupped inside his palm. He represents and sings out for an archetype of the alternative, overlooked but intelligent and wily teenager (many of this type have been listening to him for so long that they are now adults with children of their own). He has created an archetypal character, Loki-like, and penned at least one album that can be easily described in terms reserved for the great masterworks of art and musical history."

[straighttohell]

Damn, loved this. Really beautifully written and spot on comparisons.

[Hero_Of_The_Hour]

Ugh. Dumb article. Like too many people who write academic essays they spend too much time focusing on the dramatic construction of the sentence and not on the substance. Why bother spending half the article comparing and contrasting Rancid and Green Day? Then the topic of the article shifts completely.

"The sort of folks whom the Boss and Billie Joe can’t stand and whom they sing out against can also be found singing along gleefully to “Born in the U.S.A.,” not realizing that it is an anti-nationalism anthem, and find “American Idiot” so catchy that they neglect to realize that they support, if not represent, the titular subject."

I'm sorry but since when did Billie ever suggest he couldn't stand people who voted Republican etc?

"Green Day was always more refined and has honed its edge to the point where its music scythes down conservatives with such scalpel precision that many don’t even realize they are being punked"

This is just factually incorrect. Billie has stated on Instagram that he respects people who vote republican or democrat and stated he had family that voted republican and he respected that.

"“American Idiot” has a similar universality. It was written about the Bush administration, yet it feels spot-on, purpose built for the current one as well."

Again...you don't need me to point out this album wasn't written about the freaking Bush administration.

And then the guy launches into about ten lines of nonsense about the emotions classical music stirs in him verses country music and blah blah. This is the greatest what the fuck article I've read in a long time and that includes the tiny "facts" article supposed to promote a gig on that got the basic facts wrong including the date the guys were playing on! This is just a nonsense article with bizzare amounts of filler and inaccuracies.

[Hermione]

7 hours ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

 

I'm sorry but since when did Billie ever suggest he couldn't stand people who voted Republican etc?

 

I think there's a fine line here. Just because he doesn't express out and out hatred for anyone who voted Republican and respects people's right to have different opinions or understands there's sometimes complicated reasons for those opinions it doesn't mean he doesn't feel any ill will to people on the more extreme side of that scale, eg those who actually hold back people's rights or who are bigoted, racist, hate women, are willfully ignorant etc. He literally calls those people "American Idiots" and says he doesn't want to be like them, and says "down with conservatives" (the Moral Majority = a conservative group) in Minority. There's also a 21st CB era interview (that I really wish I could find ) where he talked about how Republicans would say to him how much they liked American Idiot and he'd just be thinking no I don't want you to like it, you're supposed to hate it.

It's true he doesn't outright condemn anyone who doesn't agree with him politically but he hasn't just been neutral and said he loves everyone whatever their politics either. And while the entire American Idiot album isn't about about the Bush administration two of its most prominent songs including the title track (AI and Holiday) are clearly inspired by it. Maybe they've slightly exaggerated how anti right wing/anti Bush he's been but I think you're downplaying it.

[Hero_Of_The_Hour]

6 hours ago, Hermione said:

I think there's a fine line here. Just because he doesn't express out and out hatred for anyone who voted Republican and respects people's right to have different opinions or understands there's sometimes complicated reasons for those opinions it doesn't mean he doesn't feel any ill will to people on the more extreme side of that scale, eg those who actually hold back people's rights or who are bigoted, racist, hate women, are willfully ignorant etc. He literally calls those people "American Idiots" and says he doesn't want to be like them, and says "down with conservatives" (the Moral Majority = a conservative group) in Minority. There's also a 21st CB era interview (that I really wish I could find ) where he talked about how Republicans would say to him how much they liked American Idiot and he'd just be thinking no I don't want you to like it, you're supposed to hate it.

It's true he doesn't outright condemn anyone who doesn't agree with him politically but he hasn't just been neutral and said he loves everyone whatever their politics either. And while the entire American Idiot album isn't about about the Bush administration two of its most prominent songs including the title track (AI and Holiday) are clearly inspired by it. Maybe they've slightly exaggerated how anti right wing/anti Bush he's been but I think you're downplaying it.

The article did not mention people who were on the extreme right, who were extremely racist, bigoted or hated women. I'm pretty positive Billie would hate THOSE people. That's not what the guy talked about though. He was vague. His problem is with "Conservatives" and people who sing along to Springsteen and American Idiot while supporting what the albums sing against ie. Bush in the case of American Idiot. Billie has clearly softened his language about Conservatives/people who vote Republican over the years as he stated he has family and friends who fall into this category and I doubt he "can't stand" his own family and friends. In fact I've seen numerous posts on instagram and Facebook that show that Sara (Tre's wife) is in fact a Republican. 

[Hermione]

1 hour ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

The article did not mention people who were on the extreme right, who were extremely racist, bigoted or hated women. I'm pretty positive Billie would hate THOSE people. That's not what the guy talked about though. He was vague. His problem is with "Conservatives" and people who sing along to Springsteen and American Idiot while supporting what the albums sing against ie. Bush in the case of American Idiot. Billie has clearly softened his language about Conservatives/people who vote Republican over the years as he stated he has family and friends who fall into this category and I doubt he "can't stand" his own family and friends. In fact I've seen numerous posts on instagram and Facebook that show that Sara (Tre's wife) is in fact a Republican. 

Well yeah it is vague, so just like I can't assume the author is only talking about the most extreme people you can't assume he's talking about the most mild people either. Some of Billie's comments when Trump was elected would indicate he isn't totally fine with everyone whatever their politics are, it's pretty clear he still has a problem with some people based on their politics even if that doesn't extend to every single person who votes Republican for any reason. Like I said I know he's not hardline against everyone who votes differently to him but I don't think it's a stretch for the author to indicate he's somewhat anti right wing/anti Republican.

[Hero_Of_The_Hour]

8 hours ago, Hermione said:

Well yeah it is vague, so just like I can't assume the author is only talking about the most extreme people you can't assume he's talking about the most mild people either. Some of Billie's comments when Trump was elected would indicate he isn't totally fine with everyone whatever their politics are, it's pretty clear he still has a problem with some people based on their politics even if that doesn't extend to every single person who votes Republican for any reason. Like I said I know he's not hardline against everyone who votes differently to him but I don't think it's a stretch for the author to indicate he's somewhat anti right wing/anti Republican.

The writer specifically mentions people who listen to Springsteen and American Idiot yet support what it rails against and in the case of Billie that is simply Bush/the republican administration. A fuck load of people bought American Idiot and other GD albums and regularly seem dismayed to discover that Billie holds strong political beliefs/isn't fond of republicans etc and get really pissed about it on social media. Are all these people far right people? Of course not. Just not particularly bothered beyond half listening to what was the "anthem" of 2004/05 (American Idiot/Holiday)and  maybe clicking "like" on Green Day's Facebook page when they saw it. These are undoubtedly the people who piss off the writer. They regularly piss me off. I doubt Billie "can't stand them" though. They buy his music. He's never explicitly given any statement to confirm he "can't stand" anyone voting or supporting republicans because they also listen to American Idiot however so the writer simply lied. This is Billie's recent post about people voting for different parties but respecting each others opinions. 

 

 

 

 

[Hermione]

Pretty recent though isn't it, and one Instagram post vs all the many comments that suggest he's not the biggest fan of Republicans (even if that might not extend to all Republicans and he might be reasonable/tolerant about it). He might see it's better to try to work together but that doesn't mean his statement that American Idiot isn't speaking for everyone and is anti right wing even if Republicans don't know that or don't like that is null and void. I just think it's over the top to suggest that it's totally wrong to say Billie or American Idiot is to some extent anti right wing and by extension some right wing people.

[Hero_Of_The_Hour]

3 hours ago, Hermione said:

 I just think it's over the top to suggest that it's totally wrong to say Billie or American Idiot is to some extent anti right wing and by extension some right wing people.

When did I say this? I didn't. As I keep pointing out the issue I take is with the writer stating this

"The sort of folks whom the Boss and Billie Joe can’t stand and whom they sing out against can also be found singing along gleefully to “Born in the U.S.A.,” not realizing that it is an anti-nationalism anthem, and find “American Idiot” so catchy that they neglect to realize that they support, if not represent, the titular subject." 

If the writer of an article is going to make a statement that an artist "can't stand" a group of his or her own fans then they should have quotes etc from the artist suggesting as much otherwise it's just the writer's theory and hardly a nice suggestion about Billie.

3 hours ago, Hermione said:

Pretty recent though isn't it, and one Instagram post vs all the many comments that suggest he's not the biggest fan of Republicans (even if that might not extend to all Republicans and he might be reasonable/tolerant about it). 

Yes it is pretty recent but this article is more recent. Has this guy heard of research? Note the massive difference in language between Billie's own words in his IG post 

"His intention is to divide us as Americans. Maybe we don't agree on all of these issues.. But can't we see eye to eye on some? I have conservative/republican friends and family.. I understand their point of view even if I don't agree with it. It's their right. It's their beliefs. However the progressive side is just as "American" as the other side. At what point do we all come together as "Americans". Isn't this about freedom and unity? I don't think this president has a grasp on the concept of the American dream.. the dream that we come from different backgrounds to come together. Please respect each other. Please show compassion. "

Verses the writer of the article 

"Geen Day was always more refined and has honed its edge to the point where its music scythes down conservatives with such scalpel precision that many don’t even realize they are being punked"

Obviously the writer isn't talking about members of Congress or the bush administration jumping about to Green Day in the pit without realising "they are being punked". He's talking once again about fans. 

[Hermione]

1 hour ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

When did I say this? I didn't. As I keep pointing out the issue I take is with the writer stating this

"The sort of folks whom the Boss and Billie Joe can’t stand and whom they sing out against can also be found singing along gleefully to “Born in the U.S.A.,” not realizing that it is an anti-nationalism anthem, and find “American Idiot” so catchy that they neglect to realize that they support, if not represent, the titular subject." 

If the writer of an article is going to make a statement that an artist "can't stand" a group of his or her own fans then they should have quotes etc from the artist suggesting as much otherwise it's just the writer's theory and hardly a nice suggestion about Billie.

Yes it is pretty recent but this article is more recent. Has this guy heard of research? Note the massive difference in language between Billie's own words in his IG post 

"His intention is to divide us as Americans. Maybe we don't agree on all of these issues.. But can't we see eye to eye on some? I have conservative/republican friends and family.. I understand their point of view even if I don't agree with it. It's their right. It's their beliefs. However the progressive side is just as "American" as the other side. At what point do we all come together as "Americans". Isn't this about freedom and unity? I don't think this president has a grasp on the concept of the American dream.. the dream that we come from different backgrounds to come together. Please respect each other. Please show compassion. "

Verses the writer of the article 

"Geen Day was always more refined and has honed its edge to the point where its music scythes down conservatives with such scalpel precision that many don’t even realize they are being punked"

Obviously the writer isn't talking about members of Congress or the bush administration jumping about to Green Day in the pit without realising "they are being punked". He's talking once again about fans. 

Some Green Day fans or people who attend Green Day shows are on the more extreme side of right wing, eg homophobic, sexist, xenophobic etc, no? And some don't realise it's the things they believe/agree with etc being criticised in GD's lyrics (I know that much from some GDC posts I've seen lol). And when Billie speaks against those things in his lyrics or on stage he's not just talking about them as abstract concepts, he's talking about the people who support those things as well. I don't think the writer's intention is to say Billie hates any fan who is at all conservative in their opinions, the point is just that their music is so catchy/good to listen to that sometimes even people who Billie can't stand (eg extreme right wing bigots) will sing along to songs that are against things they stand for, quite ironically. 

As for the second part what does American Idiot or Minority do other than scythe down conservatives? Those songs literally call them American Idiots and say "down with" them. And it's true that many people don't realise that. Doesn't necessarily mean every conservative is in the "can't stand" category but he is criticising them there and they often don't realise, so I'd say it's accurate. Just because he's said he thinks it's better to work together and respect the right to have different beliefs it doesn't mean he personally likes every person who happens to be a Green Day fan even if he finds their beliefs disgusting.

Recently on youtube I saw someone saying that Billie saying "no racism, no sexism, no homophobia" during Minority was "against everything that song stands for". They went on to explain that the majority are against those things now and racists, sexists and homophobes are the minority, and that the song is about accepting everyone including them . And this person was clearly a GD fan. That's what the author is talking about.

[Marki.]

^ Agreed, I just took that paragraph as complimenting on the cleverness of Billie's lyrics (which can have meanings that aren't always obvious to everybody) and pointing out just how good and catchy the songs are. 

[Chin for a Day]

I thought this entire article was one of the biggest compliments to Billie's songwriting ability ever.  The author compared his songwriting to some incredible works of art.  Guernica is one of my personal favorite works of art and one of the most important works of art ever.  The author compared Billie's songwriting abilities to that, that is one hell of a compliment.  These works of art are, by design, open to interpretation.  They are for the user to get out of them what they can and everyone gets something different.  That is so much more difficult to create effectively than song lyrics or a painting that is straightforward.   

[Marki.]

He even compares American Idiot to Hamlet! I can almost see why some of the people in the comments are so infuriated with the article, but it is definitely a huge compliment.

[Beerjeezus]

4 minutes ago, Marki. said:

He even compares American Idiot to Hamlet! I can almost see why some of the people in the comments are so infuriated with the article, but it is definitely a huge compliment.

Yes, he might be stretching the comparisons a bit too far but they do make sense. What he was trying to say is that both are universal, archetypial (and therefore timeless) stories. I don't think people in the comments section got that

[Marki.]

1 minute ago, Jane Lannister said:

Yes, he might be stretching the comparisons a bit too far but they do make sense. What he was trying to say is that both are universal, archetypial (and therefore timeless) stories. I don't think people in the comments section got that

Exactly  He's making broad comparisons, but they absolutely make sense.