Joe. Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Yeah I’m not that deeply on morrisseys side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too domb to die Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 54 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said: I find a source that bothered with searching for facts more trustworthy than a conspiracy theory and also I'm not sure how a regular business like any other qualifies as 'dirty money', but whatever, nothing is 100% and trusting any source is a fair approach so yeah. I think it's unfair to suggest it's a conspiracy theory. I wasn't satisfied there was any debunking apart from the Halal certification industry not being worth 3 trillion dollars. Plenty of companies refused to give details to ABC. "Few food manufacturers who sell halal-certified foods in Australia or for export, or the organisations that certify them, were willing to tell Fact Check how much they pay, or are paid, for certification." "Fact Check contacted dozens of Australian food companies about halal certification, many of whom didn't respond." It came across as surface level journalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Still think this has been overblown, but tbf those comments are out of order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteTim Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 So wanting to hear both sides of the story is wrong now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 12 hours ago, Too domb to die said: I think it's unfair to suggest it's a conspiracy theory. I wasn't satisfied there was any debunking apart from the Halal certification industry not being worth 3 trillion dollars. Plenty of companies refused to give details to ABC. "Few food manufacturers who sell halal-certified foods in Australia or for export, or the organisations that certify them, were willing to tell Fact Check how much they pay, or are paid, for certification." "Fact Check contacted dozens of Australian food companies about halal certification, many of whom didn't respond." It came across as surface level journalism. It's a fair point that the article doesn't have complete deailed info, at the same time there's no evidence of any wrongdoing either and the whole suspicion came about when some guy went "yeah this kebab surely supports terrorism I know it" and that seems very conspiratory to me. Seems to me I could say "italian pizza places fund maffia" and it wouldn't be much different. If the claim was backed up at least by some evidence, I'd consider it a lot more likely to be legitimate and not just something someone made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too domb to die Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 I think whether Morrissey has said offensive or racist things or has offensive or racist views is one thing and whether his views are clear or well known enough to judge anyone who works with him is another. Perhaps if Billie went home after meeting him and spent ages researching everything he's said he would've had a different opinion of him, but chances are he didn't since that isn't really a normal thing to do. If it does happen to get brought up in an interview (although doubtful since Green Day are in down time) it'll be interesting to hear his comments on it, until then I don't feel I can judge someone for doing something when I don't even know if they were going by the same info as me when they decided to do it. He met the guy at an event and must've got on with him so it's already a different perspective than any of us have just from that, and who knows they could've even talked about political things he doesn't have anything offensive to say about and they happen to agree on so he didn't feel any need to question his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too domb to die Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Their paths have probably crossed before. I'm sure Billie was probably introduced to the Smiths by his sister back in the day. It wouldn't surprise me if he jumped at the chance to work with morrissey. He's an indie rock legend and is held in high regard in the uk as one of the greatest lyricists the country has produced. I'd work with him. I'd just have to sneak outside the studio and eat my kebab and cheeseburger when he wasn't looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian's Inferno! Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Hermione said: I think whether Morrissey has said offensive or racist things or has offensive or racist views is one thing and whether his views are clear or well known enough to judge anyone who works with him is another. Perhaps if Billie went home after meeting him and spent ages researching everything he's said he would've had a different opinion of him, but chances are he didn't since that isn't really a normal thing to do. If it does happen to get brought up in an interview (although doubtful since Green Day are in down time) it'll be interesting to hear his comments on it, until then I don't feel I can judge someone for doing something when I don't even know if they were going by the same info as me when they decided to do it. He met the guy at an event and must've got on with him so it's already a different perspective than any of us have just from that, and who knows they could've even talked about political things he doesn't have anything offensive to say about and they happen to agree on so he didn't feel any need to question his character. I hope it doesn't come up in an interview because Billie doesn't need to justify himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said: I hope it doesn't come up in an interview because Billie doesn't need to justify himself He doesn't but it would still be interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jengd Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Too domb to die said: He's an indie rock legend and is held in high regard in the uk as one of the greatest lyricists the country has produced. Largely over shadowed these days by being an enormous asshole and a pain in the neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 22 hours ago, jengd said: Largely over shadowed these days by being an enormous asshole and a pain in the neck. But he's still a legend. Id rather Billie worked with Johnny Marr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
龑美優 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 ...did I actually read that the statement of Chinese people being a subspecies is, somehow, not grounds enough for calling Morrissey himself a racist? That is an inherently and objectively racist statement. As a half-Chinese person, I'm going to have to say that he is, in fact, a racist for saying that. Fuck these forums for implying the man is just being ignorant, rather than calling him an out-and-out racist for his legitimately racist beliefs. I'm pretty fired up after seeing people continue to be ok with the racism and otherization against the Chinese. The actions of the few does not make racist condemnation of an entire group of people ok. I'm done with this place. Discussion and disagreement are fine. Acting like racism against my people does not make a person racist, however, is messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bellie Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 @DeJennsitized @Beerjeezus I've read everyone's replies and I totally see where you're coming from, I just think that 1) I had never heard of Morrissey before and the quotes of his that I read now definitely look like quotes of someone who wants to be provocative, sticking to causes like animal rights even if his means to do so can seem out of place, rather than stating a far-right political position and 2) we don't know how well Billie knows him, and there's a good chance he knows him better than us, has met him before and found something else (notably music-wise) than what we can get from the media about the guy. So despite the bad image we can get from him (and I share it, I mean I don't particularly like Morrissey just from what I can see from him), it would be hasty to say that Billie has chosen to collaborate with him given that image only. I don't care about Morrissey, but I think it is unfair for Morrissey I see it a bit like for Kat Von D: it isn't a person I particularly like from what I can see, but I don't judge Billie for being friends with her. I can't pretend to see everything he sees or that he should see everything I see. I don't think at all he is hypocrite for such reasons. If he's willing to talk about these things in interview, I would be interested to hear it, but if he doesn't, it's also fine for me. Not everything needs to be explained to us. @龑美優 (Miyu Yan) I don't personally think Morrissey is ignorant, I just think he's being provocative for the sake of triggering people. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I've known 50-something men nowadays who would do jokes that many people here would call racist or Islamophobic (and even I once told them "why don't you come up with jokes aiming at white fundamentalist catholic people?" since they would never come up with such jokes) but from knowing these people I can tell you they're not racist. I can tell you this by the way they act with people and think of religion in general. It can seem weird, and I would find it weird if I didn't know it was true for knowing them, but I just want to tell you this, sometimes things seem obvious, but appearances can be misleading. I think Morrissey doesn't give a fuck about being perceived as a racist, but that doesn't mean he is one. And being mad at Billie for that seems even more like a (sad) stretch to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian's Inferno! Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, 龑美優 (Miyu Yan) said: ...did I actually read that the statement of Chinese people being a subspecies is, somehow, not grounds enough for calling Morrissey himself a racist? That is an inherently and objectively racist statement. As a half-Chinese person, I'm going to have to say that he is, in fact, a racist for saying that. Fuck these forums for implying the man is just being ignorant, rather than calling him an out-and-out racist for his legitimately racist beliefs. I'm pretty fired up after seeing people continue to be ok with the racism and otherization against the Chinese. The actions of the few does not make racist condemnation of an entire group of people ok. I'm done with this place. Discussion and disagreement are fine. Acting like racism against my people does not make a person racist, however, is messed up. I haven't heard him say that nor have I seen anyone here mention it. But if that's true, then yes that's abolutely racist and if he believes that, he is definitely a racist person. I'm just saying Morrissey isn't someone I'm actually familiar with so idk whether he is racist or not but I hadn't seen anything from this forum that I thought made him a racist person, rather than just an ignorant asshole. I'm just basing my comments on what I've heard about him on this thread I don't think anyone here is saying that they think racism towards Chinese is less important than racism towards any other race. But the guy's old at this point, he's from a different generation and doesn't understand that it's 2019 now. Not saying that makes racism okay but a considerable amount of racists are just old assholes that will die off at some point. I just think there's a lot more racist acts much more extreme that are still happening today and we should be focused on that instead of a dumb old fuck I think the main disagreement here is about Billie and whether we should be disappointed in him because he collabed with this person, which I'm still adamant we shouldn't be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeJennsitized Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said: I haven't heard him say that nor have I seen anyone here mention it. But if that's true, then yes that's abolutely racist and if he believes that, he is definitely a racist person. It was in the source I posted a few pages back. Guessing not many people actually read it tho lol. "Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies." - https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-china-subspecies-racism (Before anyone jumps in to say 'it's about their treatment of animals' - and? Tarring all Chinese people with the same brush is not racist because his focus is on animals? So me calling Muslims a subspecies because of ISIS is okay then because it's about violence?) 55 minutes ago, 龑美優 (Miyu Yan) said: ...did I actually read that the statement of Chinese people being a subspecies is, somehow, not grounds enough for calling Morrissey himself a racist? That is an inherently and objectively racist statement. As a half-Chinese person, I'm going to have to say that he is, in fact, a racist for saying that. Fuck these forums for implying the man is just being ignorant, rather than calling him an out-and-out racist for his legitimately racist beliefs. I'm pretty fired up after seeing people continue to be ok with the racism and otherization against the Chinese. The actions of the few does not make racist condemnation of an entire group of people ok. I'm done with this place. Discussion and disagreement are fine. Acting like racism against my people does not make a person racist, however, is messed up. I'm so sorry you had to read justifications for this shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 41 minutes ago, The Bellie said: @DeJennsitized @Beerjeezus I've read everyone's replies and I totally see where you're coming from, I just think that 1) I had never heard of Morrissey before and the quotes of his that I read now definitely look like quotes of someone who wants to be provocative, sticking to causes like animal rights even if his means to do so can seem out of place, rather than stating a far-right political position and 2) we don't know how well Billie knows him, and there's a good chance he knows him better than us, has met him before and found something else (notably music-wise) than what we can get from the media about the guy. So despite the bad image we can get from him (and I share it, I mean I don't particularly like Morrissey just from what I can see from him), it would be hasty to say that Billie has chosen to collaborate with him given that image only. I don't care about Morrissey, but I think it is unfair for Morrissey I see it a bit like for Kat Von 😧 it isn't a person I particularly like from what I can see, but I don't judge Billie for being friends with her. I can't pretend to see everything he sees or that he should see everything I see. I don't think at all he is hypocrite for such reasons. If he's willing to talk about these things in interview, I would be interested to hear it, but if he doesn't, it's also fine for me. Not everything needs to be explained to us. @龑美優 (Miyu Yan) I don't personally think Morrissey is ignorant, I just think he's being provocative for the sake of triggering people. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I've known 50-something men nowadays who would do jokes that many people here would call racist or Islamophobic (and even I once told them "why don't you come up with jokes aiming at white fundamentalist catholic people?" since they would never come up with such jokes) but from knowing these people I can tell you they're not racist. I can tell you this by the way they act with people and think of religion in general. It can seem weird, and I would find it weird if I didn't know it was true for knowing them, but I just want to tell you this, sometimes things seem obvious, but appearances can be misleading. I think Morrissey doesn't give a fuck about being perceived as a racist, but that doesn't mean he is one. And being mad at Billie for that seems even more like a (sad) stretch to me. Think you’ve summed this all up pretty well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billie Hoe Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Thanks Miyu Yan for speaking up about it! I thought now with you coming in, as an affected person, explaining how it is racist and how it makes you feel would make people realize their behavior is fucked up but sadly some people still don't seem to get it. I'm sorry you had to read this dumpster fire. His comment about the Chinese being a subspecies was part of the discussion the whole time but yall just love skipping over the parts that conflict with your made up rationalizations and then plead ignorance, don't you? Someone who is affected by his racism comes in and skins you, so you try to backpedal and say that he "is racist" but somehow that is still not bad enough and there are apparently worse forms of racism we, or Miyu in particular, should be focusing on? Like, do you hear yourselves? Honestly. In the past couple of days your behavior has disappointed me so much that I regret even being in this fandom. You claim to be so open minded but still can't recognize problematic behavior when you're hit in the face with it, effectively brushing people who have been hurt under the rug because it suits you and keeps the blinders in place. Be disappointed with Billie for working with Morrissey or don't. That is completely your choice and it's not even the point anymore. Let other people be disappointed with him. The point is all of you showcasing disgusting behavior when it comes to confronting racism. He's not just an "old man who's from a different generation", that's not an excuse and it shouldn't be used as an explanation either. I cannot even begin to tell you how fucking wrong that is. Stop trying to tell people of color, people who are affected by racism, how they should feel and most of all stop telling them that they got it all wrong. "He might say racist things or behave in a racist way but that doesn't mean he's being racist." "He's just from a different generation, he doesn't know it's wrong." "They're really good people though" "He's just an idiot who likes to provoke people." "Just because he said racist things doesn't mean people aren't allowed to work with him anymore, you need to be allowed to work with people who have different opinions than you." LISTEN TO YOURSELVES. You're not reflective at all about any of this, your attempts to rationalize fucked up behavior are fucking ridiculous. The fact that you cant see this is just sad and I dont know how to explain it to people like you. Your inability to admit mistakes is just as sad and absolutely tiring. It's time for yall to start judging people by their words and actions and not by how you would like them to be. And I'm with Miyu on this, I'm done with this place because I'm tired of people going lengths to defend everyone Billie has ever worked with, who cant be arsed to figure out why white people can't use the n-word anymore ("it's not universally agreed upon" lmfao are you fucking kidding me? what year is this?) and who are a-okay with racism apparently. I don't give a fuck about what y'all have to say anymore. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryjanewhatsername Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, DeJennsitized said: It was in the source I posted a few pages back. Guessing not many people actually read it tho lol. "Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies." - https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-china-subspecies-racism (Before anyone jumps in to say 'it's about their treatment of animals' - and? Tarring all Chinese people with the same brush is not racist because his focus is on animals? So me calling Muslims a subspecies because of ISIS is okay then because it's about violence?) I'm so sorry you had to read justifications for this shit It's simple, he is fucking racist. I agree with you and I'm so glad you post sources for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian's Inferno! Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Okay clearly @Billie Hoe didn't read my comment because I wasn't justifying his behaviour by saying "He's old". If you actually read my post, you'd know I said "Not saying that makes racism okay but a considerable amount of racists are just old assholes that will die off at some point." His views are terrible but he's gonna die as are all the other old racist pricks and as society becomes a more accepting place over time, racism will ideally become less and less prominent in society I actually didn't see the comment about Chinese people on that website @DeJennsitized posted because most of the points made were clearly biased and stupid Morrissey isn't actually harming anyone, he's just an idiot that everyone agrees is an idiot. Just because you're offended by something somebody said or thinks, doesn't mean you're being discriminated against by that person 1 hour ago, Billie Hoe said: His comment about the Chinese being a subspecies was part of the discussion the whole time but yall just love skipping over the parts that conflict with your made up rationalizations and then plead ignorance, don't you? Someone who is affected by his racism comes in and skins you, so you try to backpedal and say that he "is racist" but somehow that is still not bad enough and there are apparently worse forms of racism we, or Miyu in particular, should be focusing on? Like, do you hear yourselves? LISTEN TO YOURSELVES. You're not reflective at all about any of this, your attempts to rationalize fucked up behavior are fucking ridiculous. The fact that you cant see this is just sad and I dont know how to explain it to people like you. Your inability to admit mistakes is just as sad and absolutely tiring. It's time for yall to start judging people by their words and actions and not by how you would like them to be. And I'm with Miyu on this, I'm done with this place because I'm tired of people going lengths to defend everyone Billie has ever worked with, who cant be arsed to figure out why white people can't use the n-word anymore ("it's not universally agreed upon" lmfao are you fucking kidding me? what year is this?) and who are a-okay with racism apparently. I don't give a fuck about what y'all have to say anymore. Bye. His comments about the Chinese weren't part of the discussion as far as I knew. Maybe I missed some posts but yeah, I agree. That was a racist statement. You guys really love acting like you're better than everyone else because you flip out over any slight thing and because we're not immediately going to be disappointed in Billie over a collaboration and we're not gonna believe unreliable or biased internet sources that don't provide the context of quotes or sources Also, idk why you're bringing up the n word here when it wasn't mentioned at all? EDIT: Found the thread where the n word was discussed and yeah, you were being over the top in that thread too. Calm the fuck down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeJennsitized Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Just want to point out that @herewegoagain also posted a source for the subspecies comment on the very first page. And even pasted the text so people didn't even have to open the link. Pretty sure it was part of the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian's Inferno! Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said: Just want to point out that @herewegoagain also posted a source for the subspecies comment on the very first page. And even pasted the text so people didn't even have to open the link. Pretty sure it was part of the discussion. Ok so? That was a while ago and I didn't see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryjanewhatsername Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said: Ok so? That was a while ago and I didn't see it... That's the point. That no one saw it - and no one read your point in your post, either - and instantly just started in on "he's not a racist" or saying that articles (multiples) aren't true because of this and that. There's no need to tell someone to calm the fuck down. Everyone just needs to read better, and I mean absolutely all of us. Because yes, you indeed did say about racists being old assholes quite frequently. But they also posted sources to their beliefs very clearly as well. So, everyone just needs to read closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian's Inferno! Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 1 minute ago, maryjanewhatsername said: That's the point. That no one saw it - and no one read your point in your post, either - and instantly just started in on "he's not a racist" or saying that articles (multiples) aren't true because of this and that. There's no need to tell someone to calm the fuck down. Everyone just needs to read better, and I mean absolutely all of us. Because yes, you indeed did say about racists being old assholes quite frequently. But they also posted sources to their beliefs very clearly as well. So, everyone just needs to read closer. @Billie Hoe seemed to think that I was purposely just "skipping over parts" though so clearly he thinks it's more likely that I'm a liar than me not seeing some posts earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billie Joes Eyelids Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Hey, if Billie isn’t up to your impeccable ethical standards, good luck to you in whatever fandoms you might pursue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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