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"Anti-homeless spikes" installed outside London flats.

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#61 captain peroxide

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:42 PM

 

See my post above. "Vandalism" has contributed to the progress of many rights' movements.

 

See, I think comparing this issue to those instances is hyperbolic. In all those situations you mentioned, the government, not a private business, was infringing on the personal rights of its citizens. This is not the same situation.


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#62 Darth Praxus

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:54 PM

 
See my post above. "Vandalism" has contributed to the progress of many rights' movements.

Why the scare quotes? What you propose doing *is* vandalism, pure and simple. And destroying others' private property because they aren't using it how you want them to is, quite frankly, childish and drags you, and other advocates for changing the situation, down.
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#63 chatnoir

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:02 PM

 

See, I think comparing this issue to those instances is hyperbolic. In all those situations you mentioned, the government, not a private business, was infringing on the personal rights of its citizens. This is not the same situation.

Isn't it even worse, if private businesses infringe on people's rights? The government can at least be voted out of office, if they fuck up, private businesses can't.



#64 Ryan

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:04 PM

See my post above. "Vandalism" has contributed to the progress of many rights' movements.


What rights movement are we talking about though, John? The rights of a homeless person to devalue a private business? I think it's more about the rights of a business to protect their property.

#65 captain peroxide

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:04 PM

Isn't it even worse, if private businesses infringe on people's rights? The government can at least be voted out of office, if they fuck up, private businesses can't.

 

Homeless people do not have the right to sleep on private property. It's private property. I've already said that this is a supremely dickish way to get people off your property, but that doesn't mean they're infringing on someone's rights. 


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#66 Ryan

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:05 PM

Isn't it even worse, if private businesses infringe on people's rights? The government can at least be voted out of office, if they fuck up, private businesses can't.


Sorry...but people don't have the right to trespass on private property. So what peoples' rights are you talking about?

#67 ­­rootbeersoup

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:10 PM

John is one of the few people here with the ability to see the larger picture, it seems
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#68 Morrissey.

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:12 PM

Plot twist: We were talking about a block of flats, not just the businesses that are using them. 



#69 ­­rootbeersoup

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:14 PM

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Plot twist: We were talking about a block of flats, not just the businesses that are using them.


Not exactly M. Night Shyamalan but you'll at least make it to VHS
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#70 Darth Praxus

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:15 PM

John is one of the few people here with the ability to see the larger picture, it seems


I agree that it's shitty and we need to reform how homeless people are treated, if that's what you're referring to. But vandalizing private property to try to get that reform does nothing but make advocates/homeless people look bad.

#71 Morrissey.

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:16 PM

Not exactly M. Night Shyamalan but you'll at least make it to VHS

Would you like to provide a reference for me next time I apply for a job?



#72 Trotsky

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:24 PM

Why the scare quotes? What you propose doing *is* vandalism, pure and simple. And destroying others' private property because they aren't using it how you want them to is, quite frankly, childish and drags you, and other advocates for changing the situation, down.

And if every significant human rights' struggle in history didn't involve some degree of direct action and lawbreaking I'd be inclined to agree with you. 


John is one of the few people here with the ability to see the larger picture, it seems

 

If you are actually non-sarcastically referring to the fact that there is a world beyond the law where a degree of rebellion is necessary to enact change, then yes, you see it too. 



#73 ­­rootbeersoup

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:31 PM

If you are actually non-sarcastically referring to the fact that there is a world beyond the law where a degree of rebellion is necessary to enact change, then yes, you see it too.


Just the fact that there is a very clear "point B" out there that very few people actually want to get to. It's like 99% of society just wants to put frosting on a shit cake and call it dessert.
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#74 KarlyLovesGD

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:40 PM

If you are actually non-sarcastically referring to the fact that there is a world beyond the law where a degree of rebellion is necessary to enact change, then yes, you see it too. 

But couldn't the spikes, in an almost twisted way, be considered rebellion? Maybe with all of the controversy this is bound to brew the government will realize that something actually needs to be done with the prevalence of homelessness in this country.



#75 Trotsky

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:44 PM

But couldn't the spikes, in an almost twisted way, be considered rebellion? Maybe with all of the controversy this is bound to brew the government will realize that something actually needs to be done with the prevalence of homelessness in this country.

 

When wealthy people urge local government to "do something" about homeless people, they mean "make them go away" not "help them." My own city has policies that amount to "just do whatever it takes to make homeless people want to live somewhere else" and I have said in person to local government leaders that you cannot even call that a policy position on homeless because deterrence is not helpful to the homeless themselves. 


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#76 chatnoir

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:11 PM

 

Homeless people do not have the right to sleep on private property. It's private property. I've already said that this is a supremely dickish way to get people off your property, but that doesn't mean they're infringing on someone's rights. 

 

 

Sorry...but people don't have the right to trespass on private property. So what peoples' rights are you talking about?

I was just replying to Alex's post in general. The way he worded it, I actually thought, he acknowledged that there was infringement of citizen's rights.

 

But anyway. In German constitutional law this could have been broken down to a few competing rights granted by the constitution: The general freedom of action vs. the property right of the owner. Then again, an infringement of the former can only be disputed, if, indeed some sort of governing authority has caused the infringement, unless it's a crime, which is not the case here.

 

Then again, if someone chose to destroy the spikes as a political statement, believe it or not, one could think about bringing freedom of speech into play. Or freedom of art, depending on what is done. The right of protection of your property can be limited by other constitutional rights in my country. It's not really the strongest protected right in our constitution. It always depends on the single case and circumstances, of course.



#77 Morrissey.

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:25 PM

If it deters people from choosing to be homeless then it's clearly a massive success.  :toocool: 



#78 Ryan

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:30 PM

If it deters people from choosing to be homeless then it's clearly a massive success.  :toocool: 

Do we really want to start the debate about what causes homelessness?  Granted, there are some cases where it really was completely out of their control.  However, there are also many cases where stupidity and refusal to get help leaves people homeless.  Gambling addictions, drug addictions, etc.  As much as I feel bad for those people, if they would have realized they had a problem and gotten help, there is a really good chance they wouldn't have spent every penny they had on whatever they were addicted to.  So while your use of people "choosing to be homeless" is, in some cases, an asinine thought, it also IS an indirect choice if people refuse to deal with the issues that are causing them to lose all their money.



#79 Morrissey.

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:33 PM

Do we really want to start the debate about what causes homelessness?  Granted, there are some cases where it really was completely out of their control.  However, there are also many cases where stupidity and refusal to get help leaves people homeless.  Gambling addictions, drug addictions, etc.  As much as I feel bad for those people, if they would have realized they had a problem and gotten help, there is a really good chance they wouldn't have spent every penny they had on whatever they were addicted to.  So while your use of people "choosing to be homeless" is, in some cases, an asinine thought, it also IS an indirect choice if people refuse to deal with the issues that are causing them to lose all their money.

Well, I was joking, but yeah. There are aspects of that I can't argue with.



#80 Sofouska

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:40 PM

... I don't see why seeing homeless people would make you not choose a flat or a business. Poverty is all around you, deal with it and bring the guy a meal, and then donate to help homeless people, don't be like "Ew. Homeless people. Someone send them away or I'm not choosing this place". 

I don't know, this is just my opinion. I see more and more homeless people every day, and a lot of them are decent people who have had misfortunes in their lives. Bring them a coat, don't put spikes. 



#81 Sauli

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:43 PM

Plot twist: We were talking about a block of flats, not just the businesses that are using them. 

 plot twist: Tom likes to use the expression "plot twist" cos it makes his points seem more authoritative. :P

 

but hes right damn right



#82 Sofouska

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:47 PM

If I had a business and didn't want homeless people sleeping outside, I'd get a lot of people and protest, or generally press the local authorities to use an empty building as a shelter. In my town, at least, there are so many empty buildings that aren't used by anybody, and with a little effort, they could be turned into places where homeless people can sleep at night.



#83 Ryan

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:01 PM

If I had a business and didn't want homeless people sleeping outside, I'd get a lot of people and protest, or generally press the local authorities to use an empty building as a shelter. In my town, at least, there are so many empty buildings that aren't used by anybody, and with a little effort, they could be turned into places where homeless people can sleep at night.

And with almost no effort, homeless people can go sleep in those buildings anyways...even without any help from anybody else. 



#84 Sofouska

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:17 PM

And with almost no effort, homeless people can go sleep in those buildings anyways...even without any help from anybody else. 

I think it's more humane if the building has running water and a bed, and it's worth the effort.


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#85 Yussef

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:22 PM

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homelessness is not caused by individuals, it's implemented by a system


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#86 fukingcounterstrike

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:29 PM

Makes me remember Seattle and all the "Gutter Punks" 

 

Fucking funny to see kids with brand new sneakers and clothing better than my own ask me for money and cigarettes while sleeping in the streets at night and puking all over the front entrances of establishments. So yeah, fuck those kids!!! :mad:



#87 Céadóg

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:30 PM

Makes me remember Seattle and all the "Gutter Punks" 

 

Fucking funny to see kids with brand new sneakers and clothing better than my own ask me for money and cigarettes while sleeping in the streets at night and puking all over the front entrances of establishments. So yeah, fuck those kids!!! :mad:

 

Just because you dress like a hobo doesn't mean hobos have to dress worse than you :P


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#88 fukingcounterstrike

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:32 PM

 

Just because you dress like a hobo doesn't mean hobos have to dress worse than you :P

hahahahahaha Touche'

 

nah, but they seriously were sitting around playing on iphones and shit too. makes me want to smack them, though later that night i remember passing them by when I was pretty smashed and started yelling and waking them up :D



#89 Fuzz

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:35 PM

homelessness is not caused by individuals, it's implemented by a system

Except for the the cases when it is caused by individuals. I'm all for helping homeless people have a place to sleep and eat, but don't delude yourself in to thinking some of them aren't there because of laziness and addictions they don't want treatment for.


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#90 captain peroxide

 
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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

Except for the the cases when it is caused by individuals. I'm all for helping homeless people have a place to sleep and eat, but don't delude yourself in to thinking some of them aren't there because of laziness and addictions they don't want treatment for.

 

Nah, man. Everything is due to societal imbalance and injustice, and individuals are never responsible for anything, unless they're part of the group in power. There's just no way the truth could be more nuanced than that.


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