Would You Like Butch Vig to Produce Next Album/Is Rob Cavallo to Blame for Trilogy's Lack of Success?

[dudley dawson]

Um Butch Vig failed with 21CB, so no thanks. Trying to turn a pop punk band into an ordinary rock band = massive fail.

Rob all day, end of discussion.

[jakdokinori]

How much influence do producers actually have in regards to how the record turns out? As far as I can tell they're there as a helping hand, someone to bounce ideas off and get honest critique from regarding the songs, the recording, the mixing, etc. I don't know a lot though.

[WhiteTim]

I will say this -- One the one hand, Billie has grown and mellowed over time. But that "I don't care what you think, I'm going to do what the fuck I want" has never fully left him, and probably never will. What's the point of constructive criticism from your producer if in the end you're going to do it your way anyway? To be honest it's this piece of his approach to life, that as much as it's steeled him and benefited him and helped make Green Day a band that goes the distance, also holds it back a bit. In the next album the band needs to get out of their comfort zone like they did with Dookie and AI...and that means listening to and accepting well-reasoned advice that you don't necessarily want to hear.

Yeah but Billie listened and used alot of Butch's ideas

If it wasnt for Butch thered be no Horseshoes and Handgernades or Restless Heart Syndrome and there was another song on 21st that Butch convinced Billie to do...

[Hermione]

How do we know how much or little Billie listened to the producer on Uno Dos and Tre or their other albums, or on different albums in comparison to each other? I don't recall hearing that information, apart from maybe the occasional snippet about one song or another.

[WhiteTim]

How do we know how much or little Billie listened to the producer on Uno Dos and Tre or their other albums, or on different albums in comparison to each other? I don't recall hearing that information, apart from maybe the occasional snippet about one song or another.

My post came from Billies interview with Guitar Center promoting 21st

[Hermione]

My post came from Billies interview with Guitar Center promoting 21st

Yeah that's what I mean, we've heard little details about the producer's input on certain songs like that, but as for talking about how much input the producer has been allowed to have from album to album in general as Michael was referring to (should've quoted you Michael) then I don't really know how we can judge that since I don't think we've ever heard much about it.

By the way when Joe the X Kid said it was "Billie's fault" I'm pretty sure he was saying it was Billie going into rehab that hurt the albums' success, not that Billie's input into the production hurt it. As far as I know we haven't heard a lot about how much input Billie or the band had into the production of Uno Dos and Tre vs how much input the producer had.

[Spike]

Um Butch Vig failed with 21CB, so no thanks. Trying to turn a pop punk band into an ordinary rock band = massive fail.

Rob all day, end of discussion.

How did he fail with 21CB? And their ascent from pop punk to arena rock already happened with American Idiot, so the stadium rock sound of 21CB was a perfectly logical progression. Part of the reason the Trilogy wasn't well received because it was such an unexpected step in the other direction. But either way, there's nothing "ordinary rock" about 21CB.

That's my exact problem with Butch Vig sometimes. He prefers size rather than detail. He's more concerned with making it sound big rather than making it sound complex and orchestrated. He looks at the big picture rather than fine tuning all of the smaller details. For example, the last Foo Fighters record, Wasting Light. I think it's a great record, but I do feel it's too big at times. Dave Grohl said he wanted to do it in his garage, and he wanted the record to sound like it was done in a garage, but Butch was so concerned with making it sound big and massive that he lost any kind of garage-y sound that the band was going for. And also, I've heard in interviews that Pat Smear played a lot of baritone guitar parts on that record, but I've listened to that whole album front to back countless times as closely as I can, and I cannot for the life of me hear ANY baritone guitar whatsoever. Butch needs to work on giving his projects more detail and more personality rather than sheer size. If he does that, then I wouldn't mind having him back on a Green Day record.

I still haven't got around to paying any attention to Wasting Light so I can't comment on that, but as far as Butch's work on 21CB goes I thought he did an amazing job. The songs suited the size; can you really imagine the title track with Insomniac style production? It wouldn't work anywhere near as well. There are some songs on that album where the only thing that saves them is the production, Know Your Enemy being the best example of that. I don't listen to that song for the song itself, it sucks, but the production is fantastic. On the uncompressed HDTracks version, which is the only version I listen to, everything is crystal clear. The backing vocals are soaring, the guitars are really crunchy and dynamic, the drums punch when they should and the bass is clear throughout. There's so much going on and everything can be picked out of the mix, but blends together to create a perfect wall of sound at the same time. Admittedly that's not the case on the original version, because it's compressed so much that the life is totally sucked out of it. But that wasn't Butch's doing, it was Ted Jensen, the mastering engineer, who fucked up there and pushed everything way too hard. In his defence, he was probably under pressure from the label to make it sound like that, since albums designed for extensive radio play are made as loud as possible at the expense of dynamics just so they sound good on the radio, which crushes dynamics by its very nature anyway. But really, Butch did a fantastic job, and it's a real shame the fruits of his labour were ruined by the mastering phase. For that reason, I'd recommend the HDTracks version to anyone, because it really does sound like a whole new album, full of new details that are difficult or impossible to notice in the original release.

[dudley dawson]

Where do you get the HDtracks from?

The trilogy was a return to what GD does best: fast, catchy pop punk.

[Spike]

Where do you get the HDtracks from?

The trilogy was a return to what GD does best: fast, catchy pop punk.

21st Century Breakdown is here.

[IcyMoffatt]

I like 21stCB. So, I don't care if Vig produced another GD album. Concerning Cavallo question, I don't think we can blame him for the total failure of the trilogy. He maybe contributed to the failure, but a lot of other facts caused the failure: no promotion, Billie's rehab, weak lyrics, a weak first single (Oh! Love), 3 albums instead of just one, 3 released dates... and the list goes on! The trilogy, even if I like it, isn't GD best work.

[WhiteTim]

The next GD album should be produced by Kanye and his team of Mike Dean and Jeff Bhasker

[Spike]

The next GD album should be produced by Kanye and his team of Mike Dean and Jeff Bhasker

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

[WhiteTim]

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Say what you want about Kanye's music but his albums have the best sounds... and Mike Dean production and mixing and music playing are one of the best around (has worked with Selena Dephece Mode Cure Geto Boys Scarface UGK Jay Z Beyonce etc)

It would never happen but they are great producers...

[beejeezee]

I would love to see them stick with Rob. I really dig his style.

[DookieLukie]

How did he fail with 21CB? And their ascent from pop punk to arena rock already happened with American Idiot, so the stadium rock sound of 21CB was a perfectly logical progression. Part of the reason the Trilogy wasn't well received because it was such an unexpected step in the other direction. But either way, there's nothing "ordinary rock" about 21CB.

I still haven't got around to paying any attention to Wasting Light so I can't comment on that, but as far as Butch's work on 21CB goes I thought he did an amazing job. The songs suited the size; can you really imagine the title track with Insomniac style production? It wouldn't work anywhere near as well. There are some songs on that album where the only thing that saves them is the production, Know Your Enemy being the best example of that. I don't listen to that song for the song itself, it sucks, but the production is fantastic. On the uncompressed HDTracks version, which is the only version I listen to, everything is crystal clear. The backing vocals are soaring, the guitars are really crunchy and dynamic, the drums punch when they should and the bass is clear throughout. There's so much going on and everything can be picked out of the mix, but blends together to create a perfect wall of sound at the same time. Admittedly that's not the case on the original version, because it's compressed so much that the life is totally sucked out of it. But that wasn't Butch's doing, it was Ted Jensen, the mastering engineer, who fucked up there and pushed everything way too hard. In his defence, he was probably under pressure from the label to make it sound like that, since albums designed for extensive radio play are made as loud as possible at the expense of dynamics just so they sound good on the radio, which crushes dynamics by its very nature anyway. But really, Butch did a fantastic job, and it's a real shame the fruits of his labour were ruined by the mastering phase. For that reason, I'd recommend the HDTracks version to anyone, because it really does sound like a whole new album, full of new details that are difficult or impossible to notice in the original release.

I can't I notice much of a different in the HDTracks version from my itunes version

[Spike]

I can't I notice much of a different in the HDTracks version from my itunes version

Are you listening to the HDTracks version in iTunes?

[DookieLukie]

Are you listening to the HDTracks version in iTunes?

Actually jk, I have the CD burned on my iPod

[Spike]

Actually jk, I have the CD burned on my iPod

Not quite sure how that answers my question.

[DookieLukie]

Not quite sure how that answers my question.

Meaning I didn't buy an HDtracks version from itunes.

[Spike]

Meaning I didn't buy an HDtracks version from itunes.

I know, it's not available on iTunes. I said do you listen to it in iTunes?

[DookieLukie]

I know, it's not available on iTunes. I said do you listen to it in iTunes?

Yes I do

[kyanther]

Steve albini... Now that would be a fucking record!

I came in here just to say this, but you beat me to it. They could record "The rat eats the cheese" or whatever Tre's song is called. Then, they could make a video of it with Lil' Bub chasing a cgi Tre-mouse around Electrical Audio.

[Spike]

Yes I do

That'll probably be why you don't notice much difference between the two. The point of the HDTracks version is that there's no mastering compression and the file format is uncompressed to give the best representation of that, which is why they only sell it in uncompressed formats such as FLAC and WAV. As soon as you import it into iTunes it recompresses back down to mp3 or AAC, so a lot of the dynamic range that the HDTracks version put back in is lost. For comparison, the mp3 version plays back at 160 kbps, depending on your import settings, whereas the FLAC version plays back at anything between 2800 and 3100 kbps. If you listen to it through a FLAC player you should hear a big difference.

[DookieLukie]

That'll probably be why you don't notice much difference between the two. The point of the HDTracks version is that there's no mastering compression and the file format is uncompressed to give the best representation of that, which is why they only sell it in uncompressed formats such as FLAC and WAV. As soon as you import it into iTunes it recompresses back down to mp3 or AAC, so a lot of the dynamic range that the HDTracks version put back in is lost. For comparison, the mp3 version plays back at 160 kbps, depending on your import settings, whereas the FLAC version plays back at anything between 2800 and 3100 kbps. If you listen to it through a FLAC player you should hear a big difference.

Misunderstanding. I don't have the HDTracks version. I meant that my itunes CD version sounds the same as the HDTracks samples I listen to online.

[Spike]

Misunderstanding. I don't have the HDTracks version. I meant that my itunes CD version sounds the same as the HDTracks samples I listen to online.

I think the samples on HDTracks are compressed too actually, which makes them totally pointless. Never understood why they did that, it's not a reasonable representation of what you get when you buy, and it probably puts a lot of people off.