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Israel/Palestine Confilct

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#1
November's Storms

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I'll open this one to the floor, but first

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Seems fair to me.
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#2
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Well it's not about fairness. The reason Gaza and Palestinians have such a crappy military is because they elected a known terrorist organization to rule their country (Hamas) so they don't get the support Israel gets from much of the world, especially the US.

This whole conflict really frustrates me because I don't think either side has a better argument as to why they're in the right to be launching missles at each other. Israel says they're defending themselves (which they are) and Hamas says they're fighting for freedom of their land.

Neither side is innocent. Hamas continues to launch rockets to Israel (as they did well before this escalation) at they often hit in populated areas filled with civilians. A rocket hit an Israeli school this week. At the same time Israel has much bigger bombs, so even though they can target more places, they seem to be levelling a building then asking questions. Hitting a media building filled with western reporters because they believed it was being used by Hamas as a communication center was pretty careless.

I'm glad Secretary of State Clinton is heading to the region. I think the U.S. needs to put pressure on Israel to get a cease fire before they actually send troops into Gaza, while we also work with Egypt to put pressure on the Palestinians to stop launching rockets.
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#3
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This is all I have to say on the subject:


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#4
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As offensive and crude as Frankie Boyle can be, I think he summed it up quite neatly.

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#5
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The confilct between Palestine and Israel is never ending.

Edited by Jizz, 20 November 2012 - 10:41 AM.


#6
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the sad thing about this all is the similarity between this conflict and a bully in a preschool beating the smallest kid again and again instead of taking on someone his own size.
The conflict goes back when the areas started to be populated, and since that's thousands of years ago, I think it should stay that way, in the past. The truth is it's a religious war, and most people in my circle would agree that Israel is the "bad side" to be on.

I can't disagree with that, mostly because of the bully thing. Israel is so much more powerful, last time I checked they were the 6th most powerful military nation in the world, while Palestine has a semi-terrorist organization as leaders and the best military support they can get is non existing. The United States will never take any real action. There are too many Jews who supports Obama that he would lose too much support if any action against Israel is taken.

This pretty sums up what I was thinking as well:

I'm glad Secretary of State Clinton is heading to the region. I think the U.S. needs to put pressure on Israel to get a cease fire before they actually send troops into Gaza, while we also work with Egypt to put pressure on the Palestinians to stop launching rockets.



#7
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Before I say anything else, I think it's important we acknowledge there are Israeli members of this forum, and I would say to them the same thing almost the entire world said to America during the Bush years: I love your country, I just hate the people in charge of it. Because this is a subject where some people voice opinions which go beyond just strong and can sometimes be vitriolic and even hateful, there are people supporting both sides who see this through a lens and can't understand the other side at all, or don't even try.

I support Israel's right to exist, and I support the Israeli people being able to live peacefully without having to fear constant attack. That said, I think Israel's current government has failed its people. I only have a very basic understanding of Israeli politics but I do not like Netenyahu and Likud at all, and I would go as far to say I don't think there will ever be a two-state solution or lasting peace while they're in power. So when I direct criticism it is at the Israeli government, not at the people.

One of the main sources of this problem is that condition Gaza is in. Just a few decades ago most of the international community condemned South Africa for apartheid policies, but the apartheid conditions in Gaza are significantly worse. It's been under blockade for a few years now and the Gaza strip is basically being turned into a giant slum. Israel says "what else can we do with Hamas in charge there?" but seems to not ask why Hamas took power in the first place. This is what happens when people have their backs against the wall, they turn to extremism. Consequently, I would think the fear a lot of Israelis live under due to rocket fire is unfortunately reinforcing Likud's popularity because governments tend to do well when their people are afraid. Polarization breeds more polarization. War breeds more war.

We can't act though, as if occupied territory can justifiably remain occupied forever (the West Bank, Golan Heights, and while Gaza isn't 'occupied' it is more or less under siege). Israel continues to build new settlements deeper into Palestine and this seems to me like enforcing conquest with military supremacy, and this needs to stop if there is going to be any long term peace. The real problem is that it should never have happened in the first place. It's quite a matter of common sense that the new settlements should stop and the wall should come down, but it's harder to address how to deal with the fact that some Israelis have been on occupied land for decades. The Palestinians still want their land, and Israelis would be in danger of violent retribution if their military just walked away entirely. But I think the only way there is going to be lasting peace is for Israel to make some significant concessions, and that includes no more new settlements and a plan for returning to 1968 borders one of these days.

As for Gaza, they're still firing rockets, aren't they? So blockading them didn't make Israelis any safer, bombing them didn't make Israelis any safer. Further is hasn't made Hamas less popular there so maybe it is time for them to rethink their approach.
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#8
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Well it's not about fairness. The reason Gaza and Palestinians have such a crappy military is because they elected a known terrorist organization to rule their country (Hamas) so they don't get the support Israel gets from much of the world, especially the US.


Israel doesn't have much support from the rest of the world, though. The Middle East hates them, Britain only supports them because the US does, and most other countries are indifferent.

Don't discount the fact that if any presidential candidate expressed anything less than total commitment of support to Israel, they would instantly lose the Jewish vote. That's more a fault of US politics, that we can't really talk about issues in any depth. I mean, I'm in the same boat as John, but a politician saying that would be political suicide.

#9
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Israel suck

#10
Trotsky

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Israel suck


Care to explain this position?

#11
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As from someone who live in Israel, I think it's important you should hear my side story:
Every almost 5 mins there's a siren going on, luckily where I live it's more safe but for the people who live near Gaza get the attacks all the time and it's not something that just happen recently but it got worse lately. the people who are getting the attacks are citizens who want to live in their own home with their family with not worry about getting killed.

The reason that there's not so much killed in Israel side as in Gaza side it's because we are prepare to this kind of situation all the time. We have shelters, safe rooms that was built specially, so we know what to do (so imagine how many people would die if there wasn't any preparation?) even little kids, it's just become a rotten for us. But in Gaza most of the rockets are hiding in homes where children are living their. They put their children on dangers. they teaching their children to hate. They hiding behind their children.

Our army killed a Terrorist squad which was guilt of killing many people including kidnapped soldiers. They are many terrorists there who are still threaten us, they want us to be dead. it's not just they want our land. So we have the right to defend ourselves and if it's mean that we have to attack to defend ourselves so be it. I wish there was a one big solution when both of the sides are happy with it but in the meantime there's not and we have to live with it.

Also, the government of Israel give the people who live in Gaza water and electricity, which is mean that parts of our tax is for Gaza and they use the electricity to built rockets. So think about it - we pay more tax for the government that the terrorists there can have more rockets to bombs Israel.

And another thing, I once saw the news in CNN and they tend to take the Palestine side. I'm not saying take our side but be objective when you giving news.

P.S
I hope their are not so much grammar mistakes :lol: and I really really hope that this debate will not grow to a argument when people just insult each other cause I love to be here in this forum and I like the people here.
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#12
lizziebix

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P.S
and I really really hope that this debate will not grow to a argument when people just insult each other cause I love to be here in this forum and I like the people here.

This is the super important part of her message.

tbh, I can't voice an opinion on this subject. My opinoin is subjective and I can't defend my feelings.
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#13
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Israel suck

you suck you motherfucker!

#14
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you suck you motherfucker!


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Name calling won't solve anything guys.


P.S
I hope their are not so much grammar mistakes http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/... and I really really hope that this debate will not grow to a argument when people just insult each other cause I love to be here in this forum and I like the people here.



#15
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As from someone who live in Israel, I think it's important you should hear my side story:
Every almost 5 mins there's a siren going on, luckily where I live it's more safe but for the people who live near Gaza get the attacks all the time and it's not something that just happen recently but it got worse lately. the people who are getting the attacks are citizens who want to live in their own home with their family with not worry about getting killed.

The reason that there's not so much killed in Israel side as in Gaza side it's because we are prepare to this kind of situation all the time. We have shelters, safe rooms that was built specially, so we know what to do (so imagine how many people would die if there wasn't any preparation?) even little kids, it's just become a rotten for us. But in Gaza most of the rockets are hiding in homes where children are living their. They put their children on dangers. they teaching their children to hate. They hiding behind their children.

Our army killed a Terrorist squad which was guilt of killing many people including kidnapped soldiers. They are many terrorists there who are still threaten us, they want us to be dead. it's not just they want our land. So we have the right to defend ourselves and if it's mean that we have to attack to defend ourselves so be it. I wish there was a one big solution when both of the sides are happy with it but in the meantime there's not and we have to live with it.

Also, the government of Israel give the people who live in Gaza water and electricity, which is mean that parts of our tax is for Gaza and they use the electricity to built rockets. So think about it - we pay more tax for the government that the terrorists there can have more rockets to bombs Israel.

And another thing, I once saw the news in CNN and they tend to take the Palestine side. I'm not saying take our side but be objective when you giving news.


From the other side we hear that many in Gaza have water and electricity shut off by Israel when they want to send a message. It isn't just cutting off power or clean water to terrorists, but to many innocent families just trying to live their life as families in Israel do.

I don't think CNN takes any sides. They just report what's happening. I think they've been fair. I've seen reports of rockets that have hit Israel as well as Israeli missiles hitting buildings in Gaza. The problem I have (and many around the world) is that Israels army and their military technology is much more advanced, so it does much more damage.

A couple days ago the Israeli army blew up a house that killed 10 people. 3 generations of a family killed in a second. Israeli military said they believed someone who shot missiles lived there, but they didn't even have proof he was in the house (he wasn't). So we see the kind of destruction the Israeli army can do and it doesn't help them gain support.

Yeah, you guys should be able to defend yourselves when people continue launching rockets into your population, but blowing up places carelessly isn't the solution.
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#16
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Gosh, I'm so sick of this... I'm not very into the whole thing (ok, I know nothing about it) but I just hate people so much when I look at the news and see this.
I never understood war and don't think I ever will, I think it's pointless... maybe because I'm just too dreamy and unrealistic about my expectations.

This is all I have to say on the subject:


TIM MINCHIN :woot: I love this guy

Edited by Sarcasm, 20 November 2012 - 03:34 PM.
don't quote youtube links, ever. Just remove the link, it's not that hard.


#17
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Name calling won't solve anything guys.

You right but he just can't post something like that, it's offensive

#18
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You right but he just can't post something like that, it's offensive


And calling him a motherfucker is any less offensive? It's the internet, it's populated by 5 year olds with potty mouths. You should be used to it by now.

#19
Sarcasm

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And calling him a motherfucker is any less offensive? It's the internet, it's populated by 5 year olds with potty mouths. You should be used to it by now.

stop ripping this up.
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#20
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And calling him a motherfucker is any less offensive? It's the internet, it's populated by 5 year olds with potty mouths. You should be used to it by now.

You right but I'm not gonna apologize...

#21
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How is the truce now? I read in a norwegian newspaper that Palestine had signed and that Israeli hadn't yet.

#22
fukingcounterstrike

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From the other side we hear that many in Gaza have water and electricity shut off by Israel when they want to send a message. It isn't just cutting off power or clean water to terrorists, but to many innocent families just trying to live their life as families in Israel do.

I don't think CNN takes any sides. They just report what's happening. I think they've been fair. I've seen reports of rockets that have hit Israel as well as Israeli missiles hitting buildings in Gaza. The problem I have (and many around the world) is that Israels army and their military technology is much more advanced, so it does much more damage.

A couple days ago the Israeli army blew up a house that killed 10 people. 3 generations of a family killed in a second. Israeli military said they believed someone who shot missiles lived there, but they didn't even have proof he was in the house (he wasn't). So we see the kind of destruction the Israeli army can do and it doesn't help them gain support.

Yeah, you guys should be able to defend yourselves when people continue launching rockets into your population, but blowing up places carelessly isn't the solution.

You seemed to have a different tone when we talked about US drone strikes... Maybe I missed something though.
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#23
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How is the truce now? I read in a norwegian newspaper that Palestine had signed and that Israeli hadn't yet.


Israel said they would. Hillary Clinton just got there. She'll take care of it by threatening to remove the testicles of anyone not willing to chill the fuck out.

You seemed to have a different tone when we talked about US drone strikes... Maybe I missed something though.


Yeah there are civilian causalities in our drone strikes, but our military doesn't just bomb a place and hope the person they want is in there. They usually kill the target.

#24
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Israel said they would. Hillary Clinton just got there. She'll take care of it by threatening to remove the testicles of anyone not willing to chill the fuck out.



Yeah there are civilian causalities in our drone strikes, but our military doesn't just bomb a place and hope the person they want is in there. They usually kill the target.

Oh yeah, there's that.

#25
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Yeah there are civilian causalities in our drone strikes, but our military doesn't just bomb a place and hope the person they want is in there. They usually kill the target.


Well to be fair, the US military's policy is essentially that anyone who appears to be an adult male in the immediate presence of a suspected terrorist is not distinguished from the suspected terrorist. It isn't like our policy toward avoiding collateral damage is the most generous in the world.

#26
bat-chen

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From the other side we hear that many in Gaza have water and electricity shut off by Israel when they want to send a message. It isn't just cutting off power or clean water to terrorists, but to many innocent families just trying to live their life as families in Israel do.

I don't think CNN takes any sides. They just report what's happening. I think they've been fair. I've seen reports of rockets that have hit Israel as well as Israeli missiles hitting buildings in Gaza. The problem I have (and many around the world) is that Israels army and their military technology is much more advanced, so it does much more damage.

A couple days ago the Israeli army blew up a house that killed 10 people. 3 generations of a family killed in a second. Israeli military said they believed someone who shot missiles lived there, but they didn't even have proof he was in the house (he wasn't). So we see the kind of destruction the Israeli army can do and it doesn't help them gain support.

Yeah, you guys should be able to defend yourselves when people continue launching rockets into your population, but blowing up places carelessly isn't the solution.

Believe me, when I'm saying that our soldiers not bombing places with no careless. They teach us the Tohar HaNeshek: http://en.wikipedia..../Purity_of_arms so we really really trying to kill innocent people. in fact, the army announce to the people in Gaza to go to the center of Gaza cause there not going to bombing there. so why they can't do the same thing? why they hiding rockets in houses? if they so care about their civilians why they not warning about us and take care of them? They leave their family home alone and they go hiding in their bunker while their rest of the family getting our attack.
Do you really think that when they bombing us they are 'checking every house'? cause they don't! the bombing with no careless at all. So when you talk abut careless, try and look the other side.

Also, many of the places that our army bomb was full of rockets that were ready 'for us'

And I'm sorry, but I don't need to be ashamed that our Army is more powerful. I'm actually proud of it. They are great soldiers there but first they are human-being, and that's the first thing they teach us there - To be moral. It's not that we enjoy the Army, they give us weapon and telling us 'go and kill'.
Do you know what's going on in Gaza behind doors? they teach little kids to hate us. the kids growing up with so much hate and all they want to do is to kill. So no wonder they are a lot terrorism.

BTW, not a long time ago a solider and a citizen were killed.

Imagine this: a group of terrorists living not a far away from your place. They starting to bombing your city and other cities. You didn't did anything wrong and you are just trying to live you life but you are getting in their way so they bombing and where the rocket is landing it's cool. whatever if it's landing in your house, you friends house or in school... it's not matter as long people are getting hurts. And imagine it: there's a problem, you can't attack them cause you might will hurts other people but you also can't live in fear all your life. So what will you do?
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#27
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This situation is an absolute mess and solving it is becoming more impossible every day. Both sides commit atrocities, and despite reacting favorably to the establishment of a Palestinian state, Israel continues to establish settlements in the proposed territories. Furthermore, the blue print Israel has laid out for a Palestinian state, one which has its airspace and foreign policy dictated by Israel is not going to win favor among Palestinians. This conflict will not be resolved until a US administration grows enough balls to stand up to AIPAC and hold Israel responsible for their actions. I am not saying the Palestinians are blameless, but Israel needs to find away to meet the agreements it made (withdrawing settlements, working towards establishing a Palestine state in 20 percent of its territory) if there will ever be any solution. As long as the US foreign policy response is "We stand by Israel," and as long as Israel continues to receive unceasing aid and support from the US and its allies, even when it commits atrocities, the solution can't be resolved. Furthermore, Palestinians need to elect a group of leaders that are dedicated to the establishment of a state infrastructure, rather than launching bombs at Israel. For now, this issue has pretty much no end in sight, as the Palestinians do not have an equal place at the bargaining table.
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#28
Trotsky

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Do you know what's going on in Gaza behind doors? they teach little kids to hate us. the kids growing up with so much hate and all they want to do is to kill. So no wonder they are a lot terrorism.


But with the naval blockade and border control in place, Gaza is basically one giant prison right now. The conditions under which Gaza now exists cannot just go on, something has to change in the long term. Part of this is going to have to one day include worldwide recognition of Palestine as a sovereign nation, not just in the West Bank but in Gaza as well.

Israel needs to give Palestinians a reason to NOT support Hamas and to choose a government interested in peace. But these people are desperate and living in horrible conditions, terrorism is always the result of being stuck like that for too long without relief.
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#29
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But with the naval blockade and border control in place, Gaza is basically one giant prison right now. The conditions under which Gaza now exists cannot just go on, something has to change in the long term. Part of this is going to have to one day include worldwide recognition of Palestine as a sovereign nation, not just in the West Bank but in Gaza as well.

Israel needs to give Palestinians a reason to NOT support Hamas and to choose a government interested in peace. But these people are desperate and living in horrible conditions, terrorism is always the result of being stuck like that for too long without relief.


Sorry for getting nit picky here first of all, but this just troubled me.

Terrorism, or rebellion? Terrorism seems more of a tactic, a way to go about whatever cause you have. Just seems to demean legitimate efforts others have undertaken to gain independence and rights.

#30
Trotsky

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Sorry for getting nit picky here first of all, but this just troubled me.

Terrorism, or rebellion? Terrorism seems more of a tactic, a way to go about whatever cause you have. Just seems to demean legitimate efforts others have undertaken to gain independence and rights.


Terrorism is what those without "legitimate" tactics available as an option will turn to.



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