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Woman Dies After Abortion Request Is "Refused" At Galway Hospital

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#91
Céadóg

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On behalf of all of Ireland, I apologise to India for the actions of this absolute scumbag.

Posted Image

John Kavanagh (085 115 7795) of the miniscule National Movement has left this horrible, racist comment on the India Times website today, in regard to the Savita case: "I know Indians tend to be a bit slow and backward but this is ridiculous. The heading is complete lies ... People have to remember that two people died on that day, a mother and a baby, and that's sad ... If Indians don't like the way we do things in Ireland, then leave and go back to your smelly, dirty, over populated country."

Note: Kavanagh is not just some casual racist with a gripe. He has been actively trying to organise a Golden Dawn type group in this country for three years. An idiotic man with very dangerous views.


Posted Image


Also, of course Fox News (such a reliable impartial source) is reporting this a bureaucratic failing, no mention of religion at all.

How bureaucracy killed a woman
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#92
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You're always going to get complete a-holes. Sadly it's part and parcel of political freedom...

#93
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You're always going to get complete a-holes. Sadly it's part and parcel of political freedom...


Pretty sure he got the shit kicked out of him by hotel security for trying to start a fight with a black guy last year. The judge was less than impressed when he tried to take it to court.

#94
November's Storms

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Irish people, check this out. TDs and government act the way they want because most of the time we say absolutely nothing about things that we don't like. They feel invincible. Plus with the amount of apathy around our society these days, whenever a group of people do speak up it makes an impact. In fact, even if foreign people here want to help, send our politicians a message.

This website enables you to send a message to all or any of our elected representatives.

Already 13 politicians have replied to me, all with personal (sometimes good, sometimes bad) responses.

http://contact.ie/
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#95
Céadóg

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Irish people, check this out. TDs and government act the way they want because most of the time we say absolutely nothing about things that we don't like. They feel invincible. Plus with the amount of apathy around our society these days, whenever a group of people do speak up it makes an impact. In fact, even if foreign people here want to help, send our politicians a message.

This website enables you to send a message to all or any of our elected representatives.

Already 13 politicians have replied to me, all with personal (sometimes good, sometimes bad) responses.

http://contact.ie/


I posted a similar link back on the first page of this thread

I have spent the afternoon emailing my local politicians, requesting that they take action. As of now, only one has replied. If any Irish people wish to contact their TD's about this, please follow this link.


As of this moment, only 2 have replied to me. One FGer and a Labour.

#96
November's Storms

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I posted a similar link back on the first page of this thread
As of this moment, only 2 have replied to me. One FGer and a Labour.


Oh I didn't realize! What did you say to them?

#97
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Oh I didn't realize! What did you say to them?


It was just a standard cut and paste letter about legislating for the X Case. It was convenient because it allowed you to send them en masse.

I've been watching Stateside media, and it's starting to kick off now. After that Fox article I posted earlier, the liberal HuffPost got wind of the story.

http://www.huffingto...kusaolp00000009

#98
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It's not easy or fun reading, but it's far from dull!

On a more serious note, this government is very concerned about our reputation abroad, and is seeking to attract multinational corporations and tourists. All perfectly understandable. Can't count how many times I've heard Enda Kenny say "Ireland is open for business!". Stuff like this will make people think twice about visiting the land of leprechauns, green fields and sing songs. What if a female tourist needs a simple medical procedure? Caution, may result in unnecessary death due to bigotry.

At first I was ashamed see this story go international, but now I'm glad. It seems our government won't listen to the will of it's own 4 million citizens, so maybe a louder voice of millions from around the world will make it see things in a clearer light (i.e. outside of their own narrow minded political/religious viewpoint)

I think it's great that people outside the Irish embassy in London were protesting, and apparently it's being covered in Indian newspapers. I hope this is made a really big example, i think you'll find that our government easily gives into international influence (just look at them endorsing everything the EU puts forwars, even when it's clearly not in our best interests anymore).

#99
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According to wikipedia and the 2011 UN report, Abortion is only legal in the UK for these things: Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fatal defects.

Not simply "on request" as it is in many other countries. Did not know this.


Ireland is (supposedly): Illegal with exception for maternal life, health, and/or mental health


Makes it better than Chile where it's illegal with no exceptions.

#100
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Senator Ronan Mullen shares his well informed views with Al-Jazeera...



#101
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This is 2012 and there are still laws that say you can't have an abortion because the country is a certain religion? Can countries even have religion? And in 2012, people still can't respect other peoples' beliefs. If a doctor doesn't believe in abortion, I respect that. But at least bring in a doctor that does believe in abortion to give the woman what she requests. I'm glad Obama won second term, because Romney would be outlawing abortion right now in the US.

#102
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Very sad news, poor woman.

About legislation, this what we have in Spain:
Law 2010 (made by a left wing gavernment): the decriminalization of the practice of abortion during the first 14 weeks of pregnancy is specified. During this time, the woman can take a free and informed decision on the termination of her pregnancy. There will be no third party intervention in the decision.
Article 15 describes that the term of the possibility of abortion increases up to 22 weeks in cases of "serious risks to life or health of the mother or fetus." From the twenty-second week, pregnancy may be interrupted only on two assumptions: that "fetal anomalies incompatible with life are detected" or that "an extremely serious and incurable disease is detected within the fetus at the time of diagnosis and is confirmed by a clinical committee.

It seems a pretty good law but...

... Now we have a fucking right wing government, and they want to go back to a law similar to the law from 1985... yeah thanks to them we would travel in time 27 years... without having a TARDIS!!!.
Law 1985: induced abortion was legalized in three cases: serious risk to physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (supposedly therapeutic), rape (supposedly criminology) and malformations or defects, physical or mental, in the fetus (supposedly eugenics)

With the crisis, the conservatives and right wing parities come like economic saviors (at least the majority thought that in Spain :fool: ) and they even make more mess of it. And they exploit it to take away our social rights.

#103
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According to wikipedia and the 2011 UN report, Abortion is only legal in the UK for these things: Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fatal defects.
Not simply "on request" as it is in many other countries. Did not know this.
Ireland is (supposedly): Illegal with exception for maternal life, health, and/or mental health
Makes it better than Chile where it's illegal with no exceptions.


How strict are they on enforcing those parameters in the UK? Say if a woman came in and said this baby is starting to make me feel ill, would that be enough to qualify for abortion due to health or is it more closely monitored?

The wiki information on Ireland is wrong, abortion is only legal here in the case of the life of the mother. If she is likely to survive any issues then they will not abort. This is the reason why Savita died in the first place.

Senator Ronan Mullen shares his well informed views with Al-Jazeera...


I did enjoy watching that video! Especially because they picked one of our most backward politicians and some old fart leaving a church as their representatives of the pro life side. Which is pretty accurate!

#104
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I did enjoy watching that video! Especially because they picked one of our most backward politicians and some old fart leaving a church as their representatives of the pro life side. Which is pretty accurate!


It was an excellent report, I have to say. Perfectly captured the hypocrisy of the "pro-life" brigade.

I am disappointed by Mullins though. I would have expected a politician from a younger generation to have a more progressive view on abortion.

#105
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I think I was a bit unclear. Of course I don't think people don't use birth control because they can get abortions. I more meant that they rely too heavily on their birth control working, and of course there's always a small chance it could fail.

I definitely understand nearly every reason for people being pro choice. I know you said not to say it's my opinion because it's a threat to human rights. but I also guess I'm just too attached and emotional when it comes to life, that I feel like it's also threatening the rights of the unborn baby, especially if the child or mother's life isn't in danger and the baby was conceived by consent. and yes, i know it's the woman's body and she should be able to do what she wants with it, but I also feel really really really bad for the fathers of the babies that want to keep it.

I know all my opinions are based off feelings, and that's why I don't really try to go out and advocate. I don't mind telling people how I feel, but I will probably never, ever go to an anti-abortion rally of any sort, and I definitely won't do crazy shit like bomb abortion clinics, which I agree is totally insane and those people need to learn there's other ways to advocate your feelings. I also really hate how a lot of people just use God as an excuse. My feelings aren't based off of God and the fact that I'm going to go to hell if I don't go destroy all abortion clinics or something.

I also want you to know that even though I may disagree with some things you say, you're one of the few people I still have much respect for, because you validate your reasons and show how they make sense and actually try to educate people about your side, unlike most people my age who either just yell at everyone who disagrees (or deletes them off facebook or something stupid like that) and/or form their opinions based on what gets them the most acceptance with the most people and can't give any reasons why they feel that way.

Well, actually, I don't disagree with you. I think your points are valid. but my feelings remain the same, and I get really upset about people having abortions because they just don't want the baby. I was actually thinking about today, how I really want kids, but I don't know if I want to deal with the whole pregnancy thing. I mean, if I get pregnant, I'll go through with it, but I was also thinking how I wouldn't mind adopting a child, especially if someone was planning on having an abortion and I could talk them out of it by letting them know their child will have a safe home.

I guess, maybe how I really feel, isn't necessarily that abortions should be illegal, but that things should be done to reduce the number of abortions significantly. It's a complicated subject for me. I don't want people to think I don't give a shit about women, because I do, but I also care about the baby, too.

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#106
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This is a terrible thing to happen and brings the problem with society's insistence of control over women to the forefront once again. This shouldn't even be an issue anymore. This is the 21st Century and I don't think there is any excuse for the continued oppression of women's rights.
I am strongly pro choice, although I don't endorse the use of abortion in just any situation. In fact, it's hard for a person to say they're either pro choice or pro life. It's something that, based on the circumstances, could go either way. I don't believe that a woman should just get an abortion simply because she made a mistake and doesn't want to end up with or isn't ready for a baby. But in cases of rape or endangerment of the mother's life, I say it's entirely up to her what she decides to do. People could argue for years the question of just when a person becomes a person, but scientifically, when most abortions ideally happen (and I don't mean ideally as in an abortion is the ideal thing to do) the "life" that is there is not much more than a collection of a small number of cells that could, in other circumstances, probably just as easily become a cat or a lizard. So if it's either sacrificing that or the mother's life, it's pretty simple to pick which one is worth saving.

#107
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. and yes, i know it's the woman's body and she should be able to do what she wants with it, but I also feel really really really bad for the fathers of the babies that want to keep it.

Just a question for y'all because i'm curious to know what people think. I went to a pro-life vs. pro-choice debate in uni recently. Most of the people who turned up were pro-choice, it seemed. When a question from the audience was asked to the pro-choice side, which basically asked, "What about the father, does he have a say?" To which one answered, "when men have a uterus and can conceive and deliver children, then yes, then they can have a say," or something along those lines. Now, i thought this sounded alright to me. In the end, if the guy does have say at all, it should probably just be a minimal one. Ultimately, the one with the uterus is carrying. If they feel they can't, for whatever reason, go through with the pregnancy (which obviously the father won't have to do), this sounds about right to me. However, the audience, most of whom seemed pro-choice, jeered the woman for this idea. A lot of the people sitting around me turned up their noise and said "that's a feminist talking." Particularly the guys, who i reckon just don't want to be cut out of any domain that belongs to females and can't stand exclusion. Though there were quite a few girls who shared this view too. My pro-choice friends gave off shit about it too.
So, just to put it out there. Any thoughts? Should it be the father's say, to what extent and why?

#108
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Not your foetus, not your problem.

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#109
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So, just to put it out there. Any thoughts? Should it be the father's say, to what extent and why?


I'm not certain about what the father's role/responsibility should be, but one thing that is annoying me about this issue in Ireland is that some people are claiming it as solely a women's issue. There was a tweet yesterday about a planned protest tomorrow that went something like this "Dear weather, please do not rain at Saturday at 4pm. Regards, Irish women." I'd be willing to say that over 1/3 of the people there will be men. Another tweet from abroad was asking Irish feminists what can foreign people do to help. In both situations I had to speak up and say this is not an issue that only women can have an opinion on. If I did get a girl pregnant I would stick with her the entire way, and I would be just as emotionally involved as her.
I'm just as passionate about this issue as any woman at the march, and I am more passionate than a lot of women who don't give a fuck about it. So I don't think I should feel less vital to this campaign because I have a penis.

On another note, this is exactly what it means to be pro choice. A point from one of the speeches on Thursday's rally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO4644utaDg&feature=player_embedded
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#110
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Just a question for y'all because i'm curious to know what people think. I went to a pro-life vs. pro-choice debate in uni recently. Most of the people who turned up were pro-choice, it seemed. When a question from the audience was asked to the pro-choice side, which basically asked, "What about the father, does he have a say?" To which one answered, "when men have a uterus and can conceive and deliver children, then yes, then they can have a say," or something along those lines. Now, i thought this sounded alright to me. In the end, if the guy does have say at all, it should probably just be a minimal one. Ultimately, the one with the uterus is carrying. If they feel they can't, for whatever reason, go through with the pregnancy (which obviously the father won't have to do), this sounds about right to me. However, the audience, most of whom seemed pro-choice, jeered the woman for this idea. A lot of the people sitting around me turned up their noise and said "that's a feminist talking." Particularly the guys, who i reckon just don't want to be cut out of any domain that belongs to females and can't stand exclusion. Though there were quite a few girls who shared this view too. My pro-choice friends gave off shit about it too.
So, just to put it out there. Any thoughts? Should it be the father's say, to what extent and why?


It is not his body, but it's also half his child, especially if she consented. Now, if the guy did something evil like tamper with her birth control then that's seriously messed up. And obviously if being pregnant will seriously injure the woman or if the she was raped, the father's say shouldn't matter. but I do feel like, if she doesn't want to have the baby because she doesn't want to or thinks she can't raise it, she should seriously consider the father's choice, too. However, there's no real way of being able to make it a law or anything, because either person could end up lying. but it's what I think is the right thing to do. after all, it might be your body, but you chose to have sex with this man, and that was needed in order to get pregnant in the first place. it would be at least nice to consider his opinion, but it can't really be enforced without being extremely unfair. but I do know a mutual friend that got a girl pregnant when he was 17. While it wasn't what he planned, he did want to keep the baby. She ended up getting an abortion behind his back, and he was devastated. that caused a lot of emotional problems for him. he thought he was going to be a father, and then he wasn't. he didn't care if he had to raise the child by himself, he just really wanted to keep it. again, the mother shouldn't have gotten in trouble or anything, but it would've been nice to consider his feelings, too.
I guess the only thing that could be done about that is encourage people that are in a sexually active relationship to talk about what would happen if the woman got pregnant. if the man insists on keeping the baby and doing whatever it takes, but the woman definitely would want to have an abortion, they probably shouldn't be together.

I understand the "no uterus? no opinion" thing, but I feel the man should at least have a chance to say "no opinion? no sex". Fathers shouldn't get a legal say, but they should take the responsibility of asking their partner before hand, especially in the case of them being in long-term relationships.
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#111
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I think I would certainly tell the father (unless it was a one night stand etc), I think he at least deserves to know. I'd hope, certainly at this age/time in our lives we'd have the same opinion.... probably.

#112
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I'm not certain about what the father's role/responsibility should be, but one thing that is annoying me about this issue in Ireland is that some people are claiming it as solely a women's issue. There was a tweet yesterday about a planned protest tomorrow that went something like this "Dear weather, please do not rain at Saturday at 4pm. Regards, Irish women." I'd be willing to say that over 1/3 of the people there will be men. Another tweet from abroad was asking Irish feminists what can foreign people do to help. In both situations I had to speak up and say this is not an issue that only women can have an opinion on. If I did get a girl pregnant I would stick with her the entire way, and I would be just as emotionally involved as her.
I'm just as passionate about this issue as any woman at the march, and I am more passionate than a lot of women who don't give a fuck about it. So I don't think I should feel less vital to this campaign because I have a penis.

On another note, this is exactly what it means to be pro choice. A point from one of the speeches on Thursday's rally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO4644utaDg&feature=player_embedded

I didn't mean that this is an issue that only women can combat at all. I think it is excellent that there's lots of men out there campaigning for pro-choice, and having opinions on why it is right to do so. What i mean is, if the father wants the woman to keep the baby, but the woman does not want the baby for economic/financial reasons or thinks that for whatever reason she could not raise the child properly or to the best of her ability, should what the father wants matter in that case? If she feels she can't do it, she can't do it right?

#113
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#114
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It is not his body, but it's also half his child, especially if she consented. Now, if the guy did something evil like tamper with her birth control then that's seriously messed up. And obviously if being pregnant will seriously injure the woman or if the she was raped, the father's say shouldn't matter. but I do feel like, if she doesn't want to have the baby because she doesn't want to or thinks she can't raise it, she should seriously consider the father's choice, too. However, there's no real way of being able to make it a law or anything, because either person could end up lying. but it's what I think is the right thing to do. after all, it might be your body, but you chose to have sex with this man, and that was needed in order to get pregnant in the first place. it would be at least nice to consider his opinion, but it can't really be enforced without being extremely unfair. but I do know a mutual friend that got a girl pregnant when he was 17. While it wasn't what he planned, he did want to keep the baby. She ended up getting an abortion behind his back, and he was devastated. that caused a lot of emotional problems for him. he thought he was going to be a father, and then he wasn't. he didn't care if he had to raise the child by himself, he just really wanted to keep it. again, the mother shouldn't have gotten in trouble or anything, but it would've been nice to consider his feelings, too.
I guess the only thing that could be done about that is encourage people that are in a sexually active relationship to talk about what would happen if the woman got pregnant. if the man insists on keeping the baby and doing whatever it takes, but the woman definitely would want to have an abortion, they probably shouldn't be together.

I understand the "no uterus? no opinion" thing, but I feel the man should at least have a chance to say "no opinion? no sex". Fathers shouldn't get a legal say, but they should take the responsibility of asking their partner before hand, especially in the case of them being in long-term relationships.

I do think going behind his back and not telling him until it happened was hurtful. She should have made him aware of what actions she was going to take.
Not completely sure myself what i think about the father having a say to be honest. While i think it is over and above all it has got to be the woman's choice, the fact that the father can get so attached too... Though if it isn't a long-term, serious relationship, what the guy wants i don't think matters. If the couple are in a serious, steady, long-term relationship, the whole thing affects the father more, and so in that case...

#115
Lauren

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I do think going behind his back and not telling him until it happened was hurtful. She should have made him aware of what actions she was going to take.
Not completely sure myself what i think about the father having a say to be honest. While i think it is over and above all it has got to be the woman's choice, the fact that the father can get so attached too... Though if it isn't a long-term, serious relationship, what the guy wants i don't think matters. If the couple are in a serious, steady, long-term relationship, the whole thing affects the father more, and so in that case...

yeah, one night stands are definitely different than people who are in love. but i would assume if you're really in love with that person, the subject of children would come up at least once

#116
Trotsky

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Just a question for y'all because i'm curious to know what people think. I went to a pro-life vs. pro-choice debate in uni recently. Most of the people who turned up were pro-choice, it seemed. When a question from the audience was asked to the pro-choice side, which basically asked, "What about the father, does he have a say?" To which one answered, "when men have a uterus and can conceive and deliver children, then yes, then they can have a say," or something along those lines. Now, i thought this sounded alright to me. In the end, if the guy does have say at all, it should probably just be a minimal one. Ultimately, the one with the uterus is carrying. If they feel they can't, for whatever reason, go through with the pregnancy (which obviously the father won't have to do), this sounds about right to me. However, the audience, most of whom seemed pro-choice, jeered the woman for this idea. A lot of the people sitting around me turned up their noise and said "that's a feminist talking." Particularly the guys, who i reckon just don't want to be cut out of any domain that belongs to females and can't stand exclusion. Though there were quite a few girls who shared this view too. My pro-choice friends gave off shit about it too.
So, just to put it out there. Any thoughts? Should it be the father's say, to what extent and why?


A often debated issue on another forum I post on is the idea of a "paper abortion" which supposedly would exist to ensure men and women have truly equal reproductive rights. The idea is that the father of a child should have a right to sign a legal document separating himself from the pregnancy entirely, he would never have to pay child support or be responsible for raising the kid or anything like that. But in exchange for that, he also forfeits all parenting rights now and forever, he'd have no more right to visit the child than a complete stranger, no say in how the child was raised in any way at all, and he couldn't ever sue to undo it, because it would like a real abortion - something you can't take back.

I don't have very strong opinions in favor or against the concept, although I recognize that it arises from reactionary ideas of so-called "men's rights" advocates. For the record I think "men's rights" in general is a misguided movement because it is based on the fault assumption there is gender equality in the first place, which there isn't. And you can see this is a very common thing now, people believe there is no more institutionalized racism, no more disparity between gender privilege, no more heterosexism and all that. People say things all the time like "there's a black president, women can vote, and gay sex has been legal nationwide since the ancient times of 2003, what the fuck more do you people want? your 'affirmative action' and 'feminism' OPPRESSES US!" and they whine "why does the mother get to decide what happens to the pregnancy, what about my sperm?!?!" This is why people throw around "feminist" like an insult word and why even women buy into the bullshit lies that men's rights are being violated and that should be a concern for them.

My stance remains though, that every human being with a uterus decides what happens inside it, and they are the only ones who decide it, no exceptions. And I mean, that choice is an inalienable right at an individual level. I would no more support an all-women government revoking the reproductive rights of people than I'd support an all-men government doing it. I don't view the issue in terms of "women have a say and men don't", I view it in terms of "this pregnant individual is the only one with say over their pregnancy that they are carrying inside their body." So for that reason I think fathers who say they are unfairly deprived of a say in pregnancy should pretty much fuck off.
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#117
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As a guy, if a girl gets pregnant and he's emotionally involved with her, as in a committed relationship, then he should definitely get a say.

One night stand/rape fuck him, it's the woman's choice.

Like was said before, it'd be a damn hard law to enforce.

#118
Trotsky

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As a guy, if a girl gets pregnant and he's emotionally involved with her, as in a committed relationship, then he should definitely get a say.

One night stand/rape fuck him, it's the woman's choice.

Like was said before, it'd be a damn hard law to enforce.


There should be no "father has a legal say" in any conceivable circumstances ever. Ethically, debate it all you want, but from a legal standpoint, fuck no, never.
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#119
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There should be no "father has a legal say" in any conceivable circumstances ever. Ethically, debate it all you want, but from a legal standpoint, fuck no, never.


It's my opinion, and it's not a totally ridiculous one. So I'll keep it, thanks.

#120
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What of the opposite situation though? Where the father wants to keep the child but the mother doesn't. Even if the father agreed to care for the child 100% after it was born, the mother still has to carry and deliver the child. That would be an extremely difficult situation, and there must be cases where it has happened. I don't know what the "right" thing to do would be, it's too difficult.
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