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Woman Dies After Abortion Request Is "Refused" At Galway Hospital

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#61
AlissaGoesRAWR

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As someone else who went through the Catholic school system (you can't avoid it in Ireland, they run pretty much every school in the country) I would agree almost whole-heartedly with that comment. Non-Catholics go to hell, that's what I was taught.

We never got any sex education, and the priests who ran our school told our science teachers not to teach us reproductive biology. Only one of the teachers did, and he nearly got fired over it. It would have been interesting to see what the priests had to say about abortion, but chances are we would have been suspended for asking.

I have nothing against religion. I think it's a fine thing, as long as it's not taken over-zealously. I know many good Catholics, and even have a close family friend who has entered the seminary.

The problem is, for a long time, the Church effectively ran this country through the fear of hellfire and brimstone. It might seem insane to someone from another country, but for a long time priest were both feared and revered in Ireland. It explains how both contraception and being openly gay were illegal until very recently in Ireland, and how decades of abuse were covered up with help from both the police and the government.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in this country.


All organised religion ends up with people in power getting carried away and doing what in their delusional minds is best for their flock. Organised religion is about control, always was, always will be.


Oh, yes, I agree that it's very wrong for a religion to run a government. I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of separation of church and state. There's no need to impose religious beliefs on anyone living in that country who doesn't agree with you, and using fear tactics is (in my opinion) completely hypocritical of what religion is meant for. I can't believe stuff like that is still going on in a developed country. It's also surprising how much our teaching systems differed. I took a college level biology class at my high school that got into the nitty-gritty of reproductive biology and it was never questioned. Although they did tend to gloss over any teachings on contraception or just dispelled it as ineffective and evil. That part was quite similar.

It sounds like although we may disagree on that commenter, we agree on the underlying notion of what the real problem is: religion in itself isn't necessarily bad, but it's controlled by humans, who are flawed, greedy, hypocritical, controlling... the list goes on.

If it's of interest to you, I was researching the concept that "non-Catholics go to hell" and found this website operated by a religious tolerance organization: http://www.religious...rg/rcc_salv.htm It details the updated Catholic teaching from the Vatican, which aims for more inclusive attitudes and kind of replaces that old teaching. It sounds like what you were learning was very outdated... and skewed... which again supports the notion that anyone under the guise of religion can teach what they feel like, if they have that much control in your country.

#62
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Oh, yes, I agree that it's very wrong for a religion to run a government. I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of separation of church and state. There's no need to impose religious beliefs on anyone living in that country who doesn't agree with you, and using fear tactics is (in my opinion) completely hypocritical of what religion is meant for. I can't believe stuff like that is still going on in a developed country. It's also surprising how much our teaching systems differed. I took a college level biology class at my high school that got into the nitty-gritty of reproductive biology and it was never questioned. Although they did tend to gloss over any teachings on contraception or just dispelled it as ineffective and evil. That part was quite similar.

It sounds like although we may disagree on that commenter, we agree on the underlying notion of what the real problem is: religion in itself isn't necessarily bad, but it's controlled by humans, who are flawed, greedy, hypocritical, controlling... the list goes on.

If it's of interest to you, I was researching the concept that "non-Catholics go to hell" and found this website operated by a religious tolerance organization: http://www.religious...rg/rcc_salv.htm It details the updated Catholic teaching from the Vatican, which aims for more inclusive attitudes and kind of replaces that old teaching. It sounds like what you were learning was very outdated... and skewed... which again supports the notion that anyone under the guise of religion can teach what they feel like, if they have that much control in your country.


Effectively, we went from being under the thumb of the British, to under the thumb of the Church, and now we're going to be under the thumb of the EU. But anyway. I digress.

My school was run by a bunch of priests in their 50's and 60's. They were probably just spewing out all the crap they learnt when they went through the seminaries. I wouldn't have even gone to the school, except for the fact that I didn't take any science subjects to a high level, and they had the best history and english teachers in the country.

Oh god yes, religion can be a wonderful thing when practised by an individual. After a year learning about the Papacy in the Middle Ages, you see a whole different side of the abuses that religion is used as an excuse for.

Thanks for that link, I'll have a good read of that when I have the time. Basically, the Religion classes in our school, depending on the teacher, were lectures on Christian dogma, or repeated viewings of The Dark Knight while the teacher took a nap and listened to his iPod. But they could have said anything to us in those classes, really. It's a good thing so many of us were cynical.

That said, when it came to having mass in the school church, out of my entire year only myself and one other guy refused to take communion. Looking back, that was kind of worrying.

#63
AlissaGoesRAWR

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Effectively, we went from being under the thumb of the British, to under the thumb of the Church, and now we're going to be under the thumb of the EU. But anyway. I digress.

My school was run by a bunch of priests in their 50's and 60's. They were probably just spewing out all the crap they learnt when they went through the seminaries. I wouldn't have even gone to the school, except for the fact that I didn't take any science subjects to a high level, and they had the best history and english teachers in the country.

Oh god yes, religion can be a wonderful thing when practised by an individual. After a year learning about the Papacy in the Middle Ages, you see a whole different side of the abuses that religion is used as an excuse for.

Thanks for that link, I'll have a good read of that when I have the time. Basically, the Religion classes in our school, depending on the teacher, were lectures on Christian dogma, or repeated viewings of The Dark Knight while the teacher took a nap and listened to his iPod. But they could have said anything to us in those classes, really. It's a good thing so many of us were cynical.

That said, when it came to having mass in the school church, out of my entire year only myself and one other guy refused to take communion. Looking back, that was kind of worrying.


Oh yes, those old school priests can be quite a handful... And even my school could be a bit overbearing at times, so I can't imagine what it was like for you. I hope things get better over there, especially for people like this poor woman.

The link was interesting, since it cited all the teachings and such, but I could only skim it toward the end because it's pretty long. You definitely need to carve out a chunk of time to read it.

#64
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I sincerely hope this incident shows the bigots how wrong it is to completely ban abortions. I used to be one to say there shouldn't be abortions, but seeing things like this is one of the reasons I changed my views and I'd like to see more people do the same. That being said, I think it would be hard to force a doctor who does not believe into abortions into performing one, which would pose a serious problem in a country where many doctors will not support abortions. In a perfect world, abortion centers and doctors willing to perform them should be available to women in any country, but the world is far from that.

All in all, this is a tragedy that hopefully will show the world why we must move forward from archaic traditions.

#65
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Oh yes, those old school priests can be quite a handful... And even my school could be a bit overbearing at times, so I can't imagine what it was like for you. I hope things get better over there, especially for people like this poor woman.

The link was interesting, since it cited all the teachings and such, but I could only skim it toward the end because it's pretty long. You definitely need to carve out a chunk of time to read it.


All the priest in that order will be dead in about 20 years. I know it's harsh, but good riddance to bad rubbish.

I sincerely hope this incident shows the bigots how wrong it is to completely ban abortions. I used to be one to say there shouldn't be abortions, but seeing things like this is one of the reasons I changed my views and I'd like to see more people do the same. That being said, I think it would be hard to force a doctor who does not believe into abortions into performing one, which would pose a serious problem in a country where many doctors will not support abortions. In a perfect world, abortion centers and doctors willing to perform them should be available to women in any country, but the world is far from that.

All in all, this is a tragedy that hopefully will show the world why we must move forward from archaic traditions.


This isn't anything personal to you, pretty sure a few people have mentioned it. Banning abortions isn't archaic. The Ancient Greeks and Romans used a herb called sylphium to induce abortions.

Although I'm sure with all the grief Christianity got off the Romans, they might not be the biggest subscriber to their ideas... oh, wait.

Pontifex Maximus(Chief Priest) became the Papacy

Saturnalia became Christmas

Latin is the official language of the Church.

Anyway, I digress.

#66
Isabel

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Embarrassed for this country.


good riddance to bad rubbish.


Ha, that's a quote from Robin Hood Men in Tights :lol:

#67
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Ha, that's a quote from Robin Hood Men in Tights http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...


I was watching it last week :P

#68
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Here we go...

I know you're quite an activist on this issue (you've been to rallies before, right?). What's the general level of support for/against like? How close do you reckon Ireland is to a change in the law etc?


Ireland is still quite divided between conservative catholic (and typically older) people and younger, more liberal types. In actual demographic terms the younger generations are becoming more influential and numerous. A lot of polls suggest that liberal issues like gay marriage, abortion, cannabis legalization etc. have a lot of support. However the hundreds of years of church/state influence doesn't disappear so quickly. The conservative side might be outnumbered on the ground but still exist in powerful areas of politics, education and health. I'd say we have taken a massive step closer to changes in the law tonight, but I don't expect any form of abortions to happen in this country for a few years yet, sadly.

In a circumstance where the life of an actual human is at stake, yes they should be forced to save the life of the actual human. Everyone take note of the fact that fetus is now dead as well.


The issue here was that even after a technical miscarriage was confirmed, they would not perform any operation to remove the fetus as it still had a heartbeat. It was only after the heartbeat had ceased they removed the fetus, and by that stage irreversible damage was done to Savita. She died of ecoli and septicemia, both easily treatable these days.

Even in our last census, 84% of the population defined themselves as Catholic. Although it's power is fading fast, the Church still holds a much stronger grasp than we'd like over political and social life here. Our politicians are terrified of making changes that might isolate our older more conservative religious voter base. Until we get a new brand of politician in Ireland, the only change we'll see will come from sad cases like these.


True, but that 84% figure is very misleading. Go to any church across the country on Sunday and you see most of them are half full at best.

Also, to add a bit of debate to this debate, here's an article on a statement from the main pro-life group in Ireland, Youth Defence.

They sound like lovely people. #sarcasm



Youth Defence aren't really the main pro life group, they are just the most offensive, noisy and extreme. A bit like PETA in the animal rights world. Youth Defence were banned from my college (NUI Maynooth) for physically attacking pro choice campaigners. Everything they say is either blatant lies or highly distorted facts.

I am sincerely hoping against hope for an abortion referendum in the coming months, I will actually go and register to vote and all that if there will be one.


Hate to get preachy here and now but you should register as soon as possible anyway. I'm sure you have opinions on other issues that may require a referendum, and knowing the backlog that can occur in voter registration here it's best you do it before anything is announced on this issue so you get on the list in time.

Well, so it goes. Of course it's an outrage, of course it's a grave injustice. Things like this will only keep on happening with these countries.


Well it's very lucky the 2,000+ of us out protesting tonight didn't share that view. Nothing changes with defeatist statements like this. You say "these countries", who are you lumping us in with? Granted this story makes Ireland seem like a heartless place controlled by the catholic church, and there's a grain of truth in that, but it's changing and that change is gaining pace the more this story spreads.


+1 rep for posting a Come Here To Me blog link! :) I love that site.

Well I was too lazy to read the comments... sorry.... but read the topic, and that really kind of angers me, because I am sort of "pro-abortion," since I don't believe it is anyone's right to make choices for you. This is the extreme of that scenario. They literally should have no right to just refuse her, and then the consequences turned out to be quite bad.


Maybe you claim to be, but I find it much more constructive to say I am pro choice rather than pro abortion. Claiming to be pro abortion gives the anti abortion side ammunition for their claim that we are all just murderous baby killers intent on a new holocaust.

This is a story that is shaking political Ireland at a time when our government really don't need such an embarrassment. Not that I'm complaining! The fact that our leader displays views that are more conservative than those of Mitt Romney and this government is viciously engaging in a policy of punishing many for the crimes of the few means I'm quite happy to watch them squirm!

Over 2,000 people attended the protest in Dublin tonight. I can't upload the pictures here for some reason but check them out on my twitter page https://twitter.com/StephenEamonn. It was some sight to see a busy Dublin city street full of people sitting down and observing a minute of silence in memory of Savita Halappanavar. There were people carrying candles, signs and pictures in her memory, passionate and moving speeches and a lot of tears.

Further protests in Cork, Limerick, London and Paris also had a few hundred people in attendance. Tonight was interesting. There was no raucous chanting, no sillly protest signs. It was a sober affair, held with dignity in respectfully mourning the death of an innocent young woman who thought she was coming here for a better life.

Sorry for the long post guys, but as Bryony said, this is an issue I feel very strongly about and I want to highlight just how backwards and cruel this injustice was. It was a failure of the Irish health system, of the political system but also a failure on the part of each and every Irish citizen.
I'm determined to let this be the last unnecessary death due to religious bigotry and political cowardice in Ireland.

Spoiler

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#69
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Well it's very lucky the 2,000+ of us out protesting tonight didn't share that view. Nothing changes with defeatist statements like this. You say "these countries", who are you lumping us in with? Granted this story makes Ireland seem like a heartless place controlled by the catholic church, and there's a grain of truth in that, but it's changing and that change is gaining pace the more this story spreads.

These countries in which abortion is illegal. I'm sounding defeated because that's over there and I'm here, I'm glad to see you're not as passive actually inside the country. Like John said, I'd have gone out and marched too, but there aren't any.

#70
musso_kn

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As a religious person hoping to soon gain entrance medical school, and thus the medical profession, I thought I'd give my two cents. I'm not completely pro life by any means, and fully believe that there a many, many circumstances (including this one) where abortion is not only permissible but entirely right and proper. This is a view that I have developed myself, but seem to be supported by many Islamic scriptures, scholars, and philosophers.

But regardless of MY beliefs, and what I would choose to do if I found myself in a difficult pregnancy, a pregnant woman in these circumstances needs a termination. That I refuse to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds that my right to enter Heaven, as it were, MAY be reduced is selfish, and surely worse than allowing an abortion to save the life of an otherwise welcoming and maternal woman.

But all in all. May God bless this woman's soul and I wish the best for her family. It's tragic.

#71
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People are saying they're embarrassed for their country but from what I understand this was down to individual doctors. Despite being a Catholic country, if the woman's life is in danger the protocol is abortion, even in Ireland. So really it's less to do with the country's anti-abortion law, and sounds to me like their beliefs were enforced on her despite her not even being Catholic.

#72
November's Storms

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People are saying they're embarrassed for their country but from what I understand this was down to individual doctors. Despite being a Catholic country, if the woman's life is in danger the protocol is abortion, even in Ireland. So really it's less to do with the country's anti-abortion law, and sounds to me like their beliefs were enforced on her despite her not even being Catholic.


This issue is bigger than just Savita's death though. The people voted to legalize abortion when the life of the mother is at risk because of a situation called the X Case back in 1992. Despite this democratic voice and several more since, 6 successive governments have pushed the issue aside because it's a controversial one. It's not the actions of one doctor or one hospital I'm ashamed of, it's the failure of this country towards countless amounts of women over the last two decades.

Some pictures that my friend took at the rally

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I was interviewed by one an Irish radio station

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This sign was in response to a scaremongering billboard campaign by Youth Defence

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#73
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This issue is bigger than just Savita's death though. The people voted to legalize abortion when the life of the mother is at risk because of a situation called the X Case back in 1992. Despite this democratic voice and several more since, 6 successive governments have pushed the issue aside because it's a controversial one. It's not the actions of one doctor or one hospital I'm ashamed of, it's the failure of this country towards countless amounts of women over the last two decades.

Yeah I read about that, and I know it's bigger than just this case. But it is still the law and I can't understand how it was allowed to happen. No matter how much you believe in an unborn baby's right to life, how could someone, as a doctor, not realise that what they were doing would kill them both, and how could they think that was preferable to an abortion =/

#74
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This sign was in response to a scaremongering billboard campaign by Youth Defence

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/h...




In that picture of the response to the pro-life billboard, that guy in the bottom left corner is one of my best friends :P

#75
November's Storms

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In that picture of the response to the pro-life billboard, that guy in the bottom left corner is one of my best friends http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...


Typical Ireland!

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#76
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Awesome signs, good going.

#77
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I am pro life. I don't like hearing about anyone getting abortions as a form of birth control. i.e. the baby is a "mistake" - I mean, you chose to have sex, and you know birth control isn't 100% effective, so you should have at least have some part in you that is prepared for the fact that you could get pregnant. I'm probably the only woman on GDC that doesn't feel like my rights are being taken away by not being allowed to have an abortion because of my "mistake".

However, if the mother's life is in danger, or she was raped, I could definitely see why one is wanted. In those cases, the babies are more than just an "inconvenience". In those cases, the mother is either going to die by having this baby, or every time she looks at her child, she will be reminded of the awful way in which they were conceived (which might even be worse than dying). I think what happened to these women was terrible. Those countries should really start changing their laws.

#78
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Slightly off topic, but on the subject of gay marriage, that's unlikely to get passed anytime soon. Most Fine Gaelers are anti marriage equality, because they're just as bad as FF. And also those secular schools are a complete disaster. My dad was involved in the construction and maintenance of those schools, and the management was barely keeping the places together.
I'm not surprised at all, the Americans can never look after their own business. I can guarantee you that all of those nuts will claim to have an Irish granny or great grandad and that they're just looking out for the land of their forefathers. Assholes.

Re: homosexuality, same-sex sexual activity was decriminalised in 1993 (year i was born, yay) by Senator Norris. So technically, being gay is legal now. As for same-sex marriage, dear god, no. We're only beginning to seriously think of abortion now, let alone discuss same-sex marriage seriously. Our Taoiseach doesn't even know what his own stance is (let alone anyone else knowing) cos when asked he completely avoids the question, because he can't make up his mind: does he want the support of the conservative elders or the support of the new generation? Only party that has come out for same-sex marriage was Labour. The same Labour party for workers which actually punishes workers. It could only happen in Ireland.
Also, i am just a tad fed up with certain Americans thinking they have a say in the running of our lives just because they are one of the many who had a great-grandparent who came from here. Yes, that was many years ago. And they left. Never to actually set foot on Irish soil again. They have absolutely no claim on us. Why do they think they do?

On another forum I knew an American of Irish ancestry, same age as me, who got a huge tattoo on his chest supporting the IRA. What do you call people like that, plastic Paddy's? I apologize on behalf of my country for all the douchebags who embarrass us and you on a regular basis.

My god, what a fucking moron. Was this cultural ignorance? Then again, everyone knows who the IRA are and what they stand for at this stage, surely.

Yeah I read about that, and I know it's bigger than just this case. But it is still the law and I can't understand how it was allowed to happen. No matter how much you believe in an unborn baby's right to life, how could someone, as a doctor, not realise that what they were doing would kill them both, and how could they think that was preferable to an abortion http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...

Because a society that is still largely controlled by a regime such as the Roman Catholic Church are so obsessed with multiplying their followers that they consider potential life more important than actual, already existing life. Well that, and they could not give a flying fuck about the welfare of women. Because apparently their jobs are just to spawn more babies to be baptised Catholic anyway.

#79
Lady_Rufus

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Oh, yes, I agree that it's very wrong for a religion to run a government. I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of separation of church and state. There's no need to impose religious beliefs on anyone living in that country who doesn't agree with you, and using fear tactics is (in my opinion) completely hypocritical of what religion is meant for. I can't believe stuff like that is still going on in a developed country. It's also surprising how much our teaching systems differed. I took a college level biology class at my high school that got into the nitty-gritty of reproductive biology and it was never questioned. Although they did tend to gloss over any teachings on contraception or just dispelled it as ineffective and evil. That part was quite similar.

Our state was never founded under the principle of Separation of Church and State. In fact, when Eamon DeValera became the first Taoiseach of the newly-formed 'Republic,' he drew up our very Constitution with the values of the Catholic Church in mind. He did this, and before putting it into effect, presented it to the Pope for feedback. The Pope, obviously, was all for it. DeValera thought this would make the newly formed 'Free State' stand out amongst all the more advanced, established countries of Europe at the time. They'd be richer and have more power, sure, but Ireland would be able to boast that we were endorsed by the Pope. Or at least that's what DeValera was aiming for.

#80
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Our state was never founded under the principle of Separation of Church and State. In fact, when Eamon DeValera became the first Taoiseach of the newly-formed 'Republic,' he drew up our very Constitution with the values of the Catholic Church in mind. He did this, and before putting it into effect, presented it to the Pope for feedback. The Pope, obviously, was all for it. DeValera thought this would make the newly formed 'Free State' stand out amongst all the more advanced, established countries of Europe at the time. They'd be richer and have more power, sure, but Ireland would be able to boast that we were endorsed by the Pope. Or at least that's what DeValera was aiming for.


"Yeah, you guys might all have functioning economies and social liberties, but we've got maidens dancing at the fucking crossroads."

Fuck De Valera. More Americans thinking they know whats best for us.
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#81
Lady_Rufus

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"Yeah, you guys might all have functioning economies and social liberties, but we've got maidens dancing at the fucking crossroads."

Fuck De Valera. More Americans thinking they know whats best for us.

"Maidens dancing at the fucking crossroads." Lmfao. :)
What? DeValera was American? *checks Wikipedia* Oh, for fuck sake.
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#82
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"Maidens dancing at the fucking crossroads." Lmfao. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...
What? DeValera was American? *checks Wikipedia* Oh, for fuck sake.


While you're on there, you might notice he never said "maidens dancing at the crossroads". But anyway, it's a good stick to beat the prick with.

#83
Trotsky

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I am pro life. I don't like hearing about anyone getting abortions as a form of birth control. i.e. the baby is a "mistake" - I mean, you chose to have sex, and you know birth control isn't 100% effective, so you should have at least have some part in you that is prepared for the fact that you could get pregnant. I'm probably the only woman on GDC that doesn't feel like my rights are being taken away by not being allowed to have an abortion because of my "mistake".

However, if the mother's life is in danger, or she was raped, I could definitely see why one is wanted. In those cases, the babies are more than just an "inconvenience". In those cases, the mother is either going to die by having this baby, or every time she looks at her child, she will be reminded of the awful way in which they were conceived (which might even be worse than dying). I think what happened to these women was terrible. Those countries should really start changing their laws.


I have a question, do you really think "using abortion for birth control" represents most abortions, or even a significant fraction of them? Or even a double digit percentage number? Because they certainly don't.

Even for a person to be hypothetically apathetic about using contraceptives because they could always just get an abortion, this would have to mean abortions were easy to obtain and were the more convenient choice. They pretty much never are. Most health insurance plans do not cover abortion, and organizations like Planned Parenthood which exist to help the poor and desperate are constantly struggling to keep the money to operate, they rely on funding of a few donors and a small amount of government aid which many are trying to cut away at.

But I suppose despite the fact that abortions are always costlier than birth control, there are some people who think others just casually go about life with the comfort that an expensive abortion will always get them out of a jam. Unless they live in a state where a Republican legislature is pushing for mandatory transvaginal ultrasounds as a condition for having an abortion, which is to say a pregnant person must schedule (and pay for in part if not in full) a 100% pointless medical procedure where they are forced by the state to be penetrated by medical equipment and then meaninglessly view images of the fetus they are going to terminate.

Although, there is no reason after getting together the money for an abortion and being forced to undergo an invasive medical procedure that a person wouldn't just be glad to walk right into an abortion clinic (after potentially having drove hours away from home to get there because there might only be one in the entire state), knowing that there have been hundreds of acts of arson and bombings, and dozens of doctors and clinic workers murdered by domestic terrorists that the cowardly fucking media won't call terrorists because they kill by a cross rather than a star and crescent, that their very lives may be at risk while they go get their convenient abortion.

Luckily for them though, in most cases they probably won't be shot at, they might just have to cross a picket line of protesters holding signs with pictures of dead fetuses and shouting "you're going to burn in hell you baby murdering whore!" But hey, they didn't want to go through the trouble of getting on the pill so I guess they deserve it, right?

I'm glad for you that you feel you don't need reproductive rights, because you would make the CHOICE to keep a pregnancy. And since you've made your CHOICE, you want to take away the CHOICE of others, who you clearly know better than.

But at least you make an exception for rape victims, because every rape victim should totally be forced to prove to the state that they were indeed legitimately raped. It's not like rape victims ever have trouble even reporting the fact that they were raped in the first place, the only justifiable thing to do would to virtually put rape victims on trial (again, since they are usually treated like the criminals during the actual trials of their attackers too) and have them validate to the state that they are not pregnant through any fault of their own. But maybe if they were 'legitimately raped' as some members of the US fucking government seem to believe, "their body has a way of shutting it down" and it won't even matter.

And don't even think about saying "it's just my opinion", your opinion is an existential threat to human rights.
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#84
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While you're on there, you might notice he never said "maidens dancing at the crossroads". But anyway, it's a good stick to beat the prick with.

Ha ha, i figured that was you paraphrasing his general view. :lol:
Also, it freaking kills me that i won't be able to turn up for any protests or demonstrations. Seen some photos of the vigil posts by Rabble on facebook... BTW, any Irish people on here most check out Rabble at some point. An excellent zine by underground journalists. Add them on facebook. And if there is any other pro-choicers on here, check out Yuff Defence on facebook. They are satirizing Youth Defence on facebook. Don't worry, they are being sarcastic! Though with the recent turn of events they have kind of switched off the mocking tone for a more serious one for now. When something like what happened yesterday happens, it kind of does call for some sincerity.
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#85
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I have a question, do you really think "using abortion for birth control" represents most abortions, or even a significant fraction of them? Or even a double digit percentage number? Because they certainly don't.

With regards to the issue in the Republic of Ireland, Youth Defence (like probably pretty much any other anti-abortion organization) like to depict younger teens around 14-17 who use abortion as a contraception after casual sex as the majority of women who have abortions. However, research has shown that it is mainly women in their 20s and 30s who actually make the voyage to the UK to have an abortion. These women are often in long-term relationships, and their reason for not wanting a child is often for financial or economic reasons. The small subset of women who are teens that go to the UK for abortions are older teens anyway (about 18-19 years old).

Luckily for them though, in most cases they probably won't be shot at, they might just have to cross a picket line of protesters holding signs with pictures of dead fetuses and shouting "you're going to burn in hell you baby murdering whore!" But hey, they didn't want to go through the trouble of getting on the pill so I guess they deserve it, right?

And now that you've mentioned the pictures of dead fetuses, what many people don't realize is that it has been proven that many of the photos of these dead fetuses are heavily photoshopped. The fetuses, being quite small, are enlarged to look like the size of an almost fully grown baby. Certain features are reduced/enhanced to make the fetus, which does not look particular human to a lot of people, more like a fully developed baby. This is all to make the fetus look more 'human' and so play on the emotions of people.

#86
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Ha ha, i figured that was you paraphrasing his general view. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...
Also, it freaking kills me that i won't be able to turn up for any protests or demonstrations. Seen some photos of the vigil posts by Rabble on facebook... BTW, any Irish people on here most check out Rabble at some point. An excellent zine by underground journalists. Add them on facebook. And if there is any other pro-choicers on here, check out Yuff Defence on facebook. They are satirizing Youth Defence on facebook. Don't worry, they are being sarcastic! Though with the recent turn of events they have kind of switched off the mocking tone for a more serious one for now. When something like what happened yesterday happens, it kind of does call for some sincerity.


Just found this, seemed appropriate to the general conversation.

Posted Image
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#87
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Just found this, seemed appropriate to the general conversation.

Brilliant. And with that, another romantic view of Ireland perpetuated by people who have no clue how life really is or ever was here (much like Yeats, can't forget that dick Yeats) is demolished.
Though i probably haven't read as much history books on Irish history as an actual Irish citizen should. In primary school we were taught about the Stone Age among a handful of other things. Irish history was never touched, because according to our staunch Protestant teacher, all the history books were written by Catholic Nationalist fuckers and so could not be trusted. Lmao. Instead, a book on the Reformation led by Luther, the one who started the battle against this scourge of Catholicism we were told about, was bought from the local Christian bookshop and read out to us. Likewise, we learned very little Irish in primary school (to the point where our school became notorious among secondary school teachers cos we were all hopeless at Irish) as our teacher did not think it fitting for a Protestant to learn the language of those dirty Catholics. lol. I should probably take action to educate myself in my country's history now.

#88
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Good Lord. If a person is pregnant and doesn't want to be, just let them have the abortion. ESPECIALLY if their life is in danger.

#89
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Brilliant. And with that, another romantic view of Ireland perpetuated by people who have no clue how life really is or ever was here (much like Yeats, can't forget that dick Yeats) is demolished.
Though i probably haven't read as much history books on Irish history as an actual Irish citizen should. In primary school we were taught about the Stone Age among a handful of other things. Irish history was never touched, because according to our staunch Protestant teacher, all the history books were written by Catholic Nationalist fuckers and so could not be trusted. Lmao. Instead, a book on the Reformation led by Luther, the one who started the battle against this scourge of Catholicism we were told about, was bought from the local Christian bookshop and read out to us. Likewise, we learned very little Irish in primary school (to the point where our school became notorious among secondary school teachers cos we were all hopeless at Irish) as our teacher did not think it fitting for a Protestant to learn the language of those dirty Catholics. lol. I should probably take action to educate myself in my country's history now.


You didn't miss much. Irish history is probably the most dull subject ever. Everyone has the same name and keeps getting killed by the English.
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#90
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You didn't miss much. Irish history is probably the most dull subject ever. Everyone has the same name and keeps getting killed by the English.


It's not easy or fun reading, but it's far from dull!

On a more serious note, this government is very concerned about our reputation abroad, and is seeking to attract multinational corporations and tourists. All perfectly understandable. Can't count how many times I've heard Enda Kenny say "Ireland is open for business!". Stuff like this will make people think twice about visiting the land of leprechauns, green fields and sing songs. What if a female tourist needs a simple medical procedure? Caution, may result in unnecessary death due to bigotry.

At first I was ashamed see this story go international, but now I'm glad. It seems our government won't listen to the will of it's own 4 million citizens, so maybe a louder voice of millions from around the world will make it see things in a clearer light (i.e. outside of their own narrow minded political/religious viewpoint)
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