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Woman Dies After Abortion Request Is "Refused" At Galway Hospital

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#31
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The sex part, is that something to do with preference of families to what sex the child is assigned? #offtopic

India has modernized a lot but still in some rural places, the girl foetus is killed before birth. This doesn't happen in big cities but in villages and small places. I don't understand why, a girl child is unwanted in some families which leads to killing of the foetus before birth. Maybe a fucked up custom "Dowry" is responsible for it. But that would be too #offtopic.
Basically, the Government banned abortion and determining of the sex way back to control this thing.

#32
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Considering the fact that she died I suppose she didn't have that luxury.


She did have the choice, at least originally. I can only assume she became to sick to travel, or the hospital refused to release her.

#33
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India has modernized a lot but still in some rural places, the girl foetus is killed before birth. This doesn't happen in big cities but in villages and small places. I don't understand why, a girl child is unwanted in some families which leads to killing of the foetus before birth. Maybe a fucked up custom "Dowry" is responsible for it. But that would be too #offtopic.
Basically, the Government banned abortion and determining of the sex way back to control this thing.


Spoiler


And John... I think we're trying to say the same thing but have missed the wording of each others sentences.

She did have the choice, at least originally. I can only assume she became to sick to travel, or the hospital refused to release her.


Surely that would be tantamount to unlawful imprisonment?!

#34
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Spoiler


And John... I think we're trying to say the same thing but have missed the wording of each others sentences.



Surely that would be tantamount to unlawful imprisonment?!



Yes, but its fading out gradually. Again, it is still prevalent in some backward parts of India like villages and stuff.

#35
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Which might be the case of thousands of other people denied treatment for thousands of other conditions, doesn't take the blood off their hands.

I wasn't going down that route of trying to take the blood of the doctors hands, just so you know John. More of a personal curiosity. I really have nothing to add to this argument since it seems everyone will be on consensus here and it just seems like something to get upset about (which it truly is something to get upset about) and no results will be had at the end of the day. Just incredibly depressing and it makes me think of more things to be depressed about.

Guess, I'm not coming back into this thread again :tired:
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#36
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Surely that would be tantamount to unlawful imprisonment?!


The actions of the doctors in this case are highly suspect. There's no word on whether she wanted to or tried to leave. She may have wrongfully placed her trust in incompetent doctors.

Like I said before, while being horrible in terms of morals, the actions of the doctors are legal under Irish law.

Also, one report on this has been buried, and a new one is estimated to take up to three months. I think our politicians are hoping we will forget and this will all go way.

#37
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I didn't even know abortion was illegal in the Republic of Ireland, I assumed the rules would be the same or similar to the U.K but I guess not. I can't believe shit like this is still happening. Things need to change.

#38
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Also, to add a bit of debate to this debate, here's an article on a statement from the main pro-life group in Ireland, Youth Defence.

Savita death ‘not caused by Ireland’s ban on abortion’ – Youth Defence

#39
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Also, to add a bit of debate to this debate, here's an article on a statement from the main pro-life group in Ireland, Youth Defence.

Savita death ‘not caused by Ireland’s ban on abortion’ – Youth Defence


They sound like lovely people. #sarcasm

#40
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They sound like lovely people. #sarcasm


There's more of them kind of people in Ireland than I like to think about.

One comment I saw earlier summed this situation up quite well.


"If 84% of the country support an organisation whose beliefs include being anti-abortion, anti-gay rights and indeed, anti-progress, then expect this to happen.

The Church is solely responsible for this woman’s death and the 84% of this population who support them are individually complicit in it.

Thank you, Catholic Ireland, for destroying the life of an innocent woman who had absolutely nothing to do with your beliefs. Thank you for inserting yourself into our schools, our hospitals and our Government and a massive thank you to the 84% of this country who give that church its mandate and power.

Thank you for continually forcing the values of a book written thousands of years ago, which teaches us NOTHING about life, on modern society, while we’re here with a robot on Mars and being able to use DNA as a form of computer memory as a result of the discoveries made by people who have nothing to do with your stupid book (90% of those registered to the academy of science in the US are atheist).

Well, Catholics, I suppose you can take solace in the fact that your beliefs and your church’s teachings maintain that the poor baby is now in “heaven” while the mother, who through purely not being a Catholic, is now in the “fiery pits of Hell” and is going to be tortured for eternity.

Vile."
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#41
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This has made me sick to my stomach. I'd be at the protest in Dublin city right now if I'd have heard about it on time.
I am sincerely hoping against hope for an abortion referendum in the coming months, I will actually go and register to vote and all that if there will be one. Sadly, if a referendum does happen, I would be very nervous for the results, as quite a large chunk of older people in the population would vote against it I imagine. But I also think many people around my age bracket, who may not necessarily be bothered with voting in other things, would make the effort, as I would, if it did go to referendum.
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#42
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Also, to add a bit of debate to this debate, here's an article on a statement from the main pro-life group in Ireland, Youth Defence.

Savita death ‘not caused by Ireland’s ban on abortion’ – Youth Defence


Of course, blame the journalists. It's so easy that way. :P

There's more of them kind of people in Ireland than I like to think about.

One comment I saw earlier summed this situation up quite well.


"If 84% of the country support an organisation whose beliefs include being anti-abortion, anti-gay rights and indeed, anti-progress, then expect this to happen.

The Church is solely responsible for this woman’s death and the 84% of this population who support them are individually complicit in it.

Thank you, Catholic Ireland, for destroying the life of an innocent woman who had absolutely nothing to do with your beliefs. Thank you for inserting yourself into our schools, our hospitals and our Government and a massive thank you to the 84% of this country who give that church its mandate and power.

Thank you for continually forcing the values of a book written thousands of years ago, which teaches us NOTHING about life, on modern society, while we’re here with a robot on Mars and being able to use DNA as a form of computer memory as a result of the discoveries made by people who have nothing to do with your stupid book (90% of those registered to the academy of science in the US are atheist).

Well, Catholics, I suppose you can take solace in the fact that your beliefs and your church’s teachings maintain that the poor baby is now in “heaven” while the mother, who through purely not being a Catholic, is now in the “fiery pits of Hell” and is going to be tortured for eternity.

Vile."


As someone who was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic school for 12 years, I believe that comment is a bit extreme. "Not being Catholic" doesn't ensure "fiery pits of hell" and I would argue that many of the messages in the Bible, thematically, can be applied to modern day relations with others, or "life," as the commenter puts it. However, I agree the Bible should not be used as a scientific guide, and is not a 100% accurate accounting of history. It isn't taught that way in Catholic teaching, either.

I do not necessarily agree with Catholic teachings on sexuality, abortions, gay marriage, women's roles, etc. and therefore I hesitate to even call myself a practicing Catholic, although I do agree with some teachings and I don't think being religious is necessarily a bad thing if you live a good life and don't follow your religion blindly. But hearing things like this is very frustrating and I can understand why religion gets such a bad rep. This is truly a devastating story.

What I was taught in my high school is abortion is OK in a situation where the baby will die anyway -- the most common instance is a fallopian tube baby. One of my teachers, a devout Catholic, had an abortion because her baby would have died if it continued to grow in her fallopian tube and she would have died as well. She was open to talking with us about it and said it was in line with Catholic teachings. So, what I don't understand is if they knew this baby would die anyway, why didn't they perform the abortion and at least save the mother? (I mean, I guess if it's illegal they can't, but still, their basis for it being illegal is the teaching... you get what I'm saying?)
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#43
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Of course, blame the journalists. It's so easy that way. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...



As someone who was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic school for 12 years, I believe that comment is a bit extreme. "Not being Catholic" doesn't ensure "fiery pits of hell" and I would argue that many of the messages in the Bible, thematically, can be applied to modern day relations with others, or "life," as the commenter puts it. However, I agree the Bible should not be used as a scientific guide, and is not a 100% accurate accounting of history. It isn't taught that way in Catholic teaching, either.

I do not necessarily agree with Catholic teachings on sexuality, abortions, gay marriage, women's roles, etc. and therefore I hesitate to even call myself a practicing Catholic, although I do agree with some teachings and I don't think being religious is necessarily a bad thing if you live a good life and don't follow your religion blindly. But hearing things like this is very frustrating and I can understand why religion gets such a bad rep. This is truly a devastating story.

What I was taught in my high school is abortion is OK in a situation where the baby will die anyway -- the most common instance is a fallopian tube baby. One of my teachers, a devout Catholic, had an abortion because her baby would have died if it continued to grow in her fallopian tube and she would have died as well. She was open to talking with us about it and said it was in line with Catholic teachings. So, what I don't understand is if they knew this baby would die anyway, why didn't they perform the abortion and at least save the mother? (I mean, I guess if it's illegal they can't, but still, their basis for it being illegal is the teaching... you get what I'm saying?)


Just out of interest, which part of the bible do Catholics get their anti-abortion stance from in the first place?

This has made me sick to my stomach. I'd be at the protest in Dublin city right now if I'd have heard about it on time.
I am sincerely hoping against hope for an abortion referendum in the coming months, I will actually go and register to vote and all that if there will be one. Sadly, if a referendum does happen, I would be very nervous for the results, as quite a large chunk of older people in the population would vote against it I imagine. But I also think many people around my age bracket, who may not necessarily be bothered with voting in other things, would make the effort, as I would, if it did go to referendum.


I'd like to think there'd be a vote for progress but it depends how many young people turned out to vote etc...

#44
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What I'm confused about (and I would be able to clear this issue up for myself if I did further reading on this, but I'm busy with assignments so I shouldn't even be here :P) is whether or not her life was at risk when she was first taken into hospital. Because abortion here is allowed if the mother's life is at risk.

#45
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Heh, we differ on the "abortion of convience" thing I see... But I agree with the rest of your statement.


We don't disagree on anything. I think that a fetus is part of a woman's body until it comes out, one way or another, and she should have the freedom to abort if it she so chooses.

That said, a member of my extended family is both a doctor and a devout Catholic. As a matter of principle, he will not perform abortions for teenagers that got themselves knocked up, couples that don't want an "imperfect" child, women who decide they just can't handle the baby, etc. His approach is to suggest adoption while handing the woman a referral to a doctor who will perform abortions in those cases. That said, he can and has performed abortions in cases of rape (he does not ask for a police report, just takes the woman at her word), incest and situations where there is a serious risk of great harm or death to the mother. I don't agree with him in that stance, but I can respect it far more than I could ever respect a doctor who blows off life-threatening concerns for the mother in deference to the fetus. Someone should probably remind that idiot that if the mother dies, the stillborn baby will be the least of anyone's concerns.

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#46
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I'd like to think there'd be a vote for progress but it depends how many young people turned out to vote etc...


Exactly. I do think there are lots of young people here who feel strongly about this issue, which is why I'm really hopeful for a referendum.

Edit: Just saw one of Stephen's tweets there, over 1,000 people are at the protest right now, which is encouraging!

Edited by colour_me_stupid_, 14 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

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#47
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I'm glad some people are going out to demonstrate, if this were happening where I live I sure as fuck would be.
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#48
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I'm absolutely furious about this. I've ranted and complained about it for so long now that I just don't have the energy for much more complaining.

My question is as soon as she was denied medical attention in Ireland, why not seek medical attention somewhere else? Obviously the story didn't cover a lot. I didn't pick up a date when she initially went to the doctor about it. But yeah, questions.

Where else would she go? We're an island. The only way to get to another country would be to get a ferry or plane to Britain. And she was miscarrying in agony this whole time. She had nowhere to go, and the important here is that this country's laws just let her die.

Is it completely legal in Northern Ireland then (as part of the UK)? I'm a bit rusty on the facts...

No. Although they're part of the UK, they have similar laws to the republic. A Marie Stopes clinic recently opened in Belfast, which was controversial enough, where abortions can be obtained up to 9 weeks if the mother's health is at risk. So they couldn't have done anything more for Sivita than the republic.
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#49
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Absolutely vile and sickening that this kind of shit is still happening.

#50
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Just out of interest, which part of the bible do Catholics get their anti-abortion stance from in the first place?


Well, because the word "abortion" isn't in there, because the practice obviously didn't exist then as it does today (although undoubtedly people found their ways to do it), many people point to this passage: http://bible.cc/jeremiah/1-5.htm But if you take it in context, it's God speaking to a prophet, not to everyone, but many people fail to mention that and use it as "proof" that abortion is wrong... Other than that, there isn't really any specific passage to my knowledge addressing this issue.

However, the general Catholic teaching is "all life is sacred, from natural conception to natural death." That theme is prevalent throughout the Bible, and is the basis for the anti-abortion stance as well. I'd argue most people, if not all people, think life is sacred too and that we shouldn't kill innocent people. So the argument over abortion isn't whether killing is wrong, but whether, in fact, you're killing a person. Catholics think a fetus is an innocent person. Others do not.

I hope that makes sense. Not saying this is necessarily right -- just explaining the perspective.

#51
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Well, so it goes. Of course it's an outrage, of course it's a grave injustice. Things like this will only keep on happening with these countries.

#52
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Of course, blame the journalists. It's so easy that way. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...



As someone who was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic school for 12 years, I believe that comment is a bit extreme. "Not being Catholic" doesn't ensure "fiery pits of hell" and I would argue that many of the messages in the Bible, thematically, can be applied to modern day relations with others, or "life," as the commenter puts it. However, I agree the Bible should not be used as a scientific guide, and is not a 100% accurate accounting of history. It isn't taught that way in Catholic teaching, either.

I do not necessarily agree with Catholic teachings on sexuality, abortions, gay marriage, women's roles, etc. and therefore I hesitate to even call myself a practicing Catholic, although I do agree with some teachings and I don't think being religious is necessarily a bad thing if you live a good life and don't follow your religion blindly. But hearing things like this is very frustrating and I can understand why religion gets such a bad rep. This is truly a devastating story.

What I was taught in my high school is abortion is OK in a situation where the baby will die anyway -- the most common instance is a fallopian tube baby. One of my teachers, a devout Catholic, had an abortion because her baby would have died if it continued to grow in her fallopian tube and she would have died as well. She was open to talking with us about it and said it was in line with Catholic teachings. So, what I don't understand is if they knew this baby would die anyway, why didn't they perform the abortion and at least save the mother? (I mean, I guess if it's illegal they can't, but still, their basis for it being illegal is the teaching... you get what I'm saying?)


As someone else who went through the Catholic school system (you can't avoid it in Ireland, they run pretty much every school in the country) I would agree almost whole-heartedly with that comment. Non-Catholics go to hell, that's what I was taught.

We never got any sex education, and the priests who ran our school told our science teachers not to teach us reproductive biology. Only one of the teachers did, and he nearly got fired over it. It would have been interesting to see what the priests had to say about abortion, but chances are we would have been suspended for asking.

I have nothing against religion. I think it's a fine thing, as long as it's not taken over-zealously. I know many good Catholics, and even have a close family friend who has entered the seminary.

The problem is, for a long time, the Church effectively ran this country through the fear of hellfire and brimstone. It might seem insane to someone from another country, but for a long time priest were both feared and revered in Ireland. It explains how both contraception and being openly gay were illegal until very recently in Ireland, and how decades of abuse were covered up with help from both the police and the government.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in this country.
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#53
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I work with Savita's husband, Praveen, he is such a lovely man. This is such a horrible thing to happen. I've known about this since Savita died but I was informed that it was under different circumstances. It is only by reading the news today that I found it to be a different story. I think it's a disgrace that she could not have the termination. There will be a lot of pressure put on the government to hold a another referendum over abortion. I cant understand how anyone can justify the death of Savita.

#54
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Even in our last census, 84% of the population defined themselves as Catholic. Although it's power is fading fast, the Church still holds a much stronger grasp than we'd like over political and social life here. Our politicians are terrified of making changes that might isolate our older more conservative religious voter base. Until we get a new brand of politician in Ireland, the only change we'll see will come from sad cases like these.

Oh but now we're definitely beginning to get somewhere. :)/> Remember úna Bean Mhic Mhathuna, crazy conservative Catholic campaigner whose daughter founded Youth Defence in her own home with a couple other youths? She said in 1976, "We do not want contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality, secular schools or any of the trappings of an uninspiring secular Ireland." Looks like we have only one struggle left to go, and it looks like the time has finally come. She died earlier this year - pity she won't be around to see the last of her aims fail. It's just a matter of time now folks. ;)/>

And if you didn't hear about this crazy old woman, this will give you an idea of the kind of right wing nuts that we still have here (but they're fading out, slowly but surely): http://comeheretome....onary-politics/

Also, may i add that i find it rather disturbing that a load of the people who support Youth Defence and have like their facer page are not even living in the country but are residents of the US? No joke. If i find the source where i found this out. Clearly conservatives over there who are not happy with losing the battle on their own home soil feel like they have a right to interfere with human rights here.
American right wingers, please keep your hands out of irish womens' genitalia. Thank you.

As someone else who went through the Catholic school system (you can't avoid it in Ireland, they run pretty much every school in the country) I would agree almost whole-heartedly with that comment. Non-Catholics go to hell, that's what I was taught.

We never got any sex education, and the priests who ran our school told our science teachers not to teach us reproductive biology. Only one of the teachers did, and he nearly got fired over it. It would have been interesting to see what the priests had to say about abortion, but chances are we would have been suspended for asking.

I have nothing against religion. I think it's a fine thing, as long as it's not taken over-zealously. I know many good Catholics, and even have a close family friend who has entered the seminary.

The problem is, for a long time, the Church effectively ran this country through the fear of hellfire and brimstone. It might seem insane to someone from another country, but for a long time priest were both feared and revered in Ireland. It explains how both contraception and being openly gay were illegal until very recently in Ireland, and how decades of abuse were covered up with help from both the police and the government.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in this country.

Magdalene laundries, cover up of countless cases of child abuse by the Church, the sale of illegitimate kids to American parents who were not deemed fit to raise kids by their own country (we're talking pedophiles, alcoholics, the mentally unstable...) and i could go on. The Catholic Church is beyond redemption.
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#55
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There was a pro-life vs. pro-choice debate going on in the

Oh but now we're definitely beginning to get somewhere. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/... Remember úna Bean Mhic Mhathuna, crazy conservative Catholic campaigner whose daughter founded Youth Defence in her own home with a couple other youths? She said in 1976, "We do not want contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality, secular schools or any of the trappings of an uninspiring secular Ireland." Looks like we have only one struggle left to go, and it looks like the time has finally come. She died earlier this year - pity she won't be around to see the last of her aims fail. It's just a matter of time now folks. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...

And if you didn't hear about this crazy old woman, this will give you an idea of the kind of right wing nuts that we still have here (but they're fading out, slowly but surely): http://comeheretome....onary-politics/

Also, may i add that i find it rather disturbing that a load of the people who support Youth Defence and have like their facer page are not even living in the country but are residents of the US? No joke. If i find the source where i found this out. Clearly conservatives over there who are not happy with losing the battle on their own home soil feel like they have a right to interfere with human rights here.
American right wingers, please keep your hands out of irish womens' genitalia. Thank you.


Slightly off topic, but on the subject of gay marriage, that's unlikely to get passed anytime soon. Most Fine Gaelers are anti marriage equality, because they're just as bad as FF. And also those secular schools are a complete disaster. My dad was involved in the construction and maintenance of those schools, and the management was barely keeping the places together.

I'm not surprised at all, the Americans can never look after their own business. I can guarantee you that all of those nuts will claim to have an Irish granny or great grandad and that they're just looking out for the land of their forefathers. Assholes.

#56
Trotsky

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You're surprised American right-wingers are praising foreign backwardness? Shit, if "Jesus" replaced "Allah" then Christian fundies here would praise the fucking Taliban, the bastards they are.
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#57
Céadóg

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Magdalene laundries, cover up of countless cases of child abuse by the Church, the sale of illegitimate kids to American parents who were not deemed fit to raise kids by their own country (we're talking pedophiles, alcoholics, the mentally unstable...) and i could go on. The Catholic Church is beyond redemption.


All organised religion ends up with people in power getting carried away and doing what in their delusional minds is best for their flock. Organised religion is about control, always was, always will be.

#58
Trotsky

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On another forum I knew an American of Irish ancestry, same age as me, who got a huge tattoo on his chest supporting the IRA. What do you call people like that, plastic Paddy's? I apologize on behalf of my country for all the douchebags who embarrass us and you on a regular basis.

#59
Céadóg

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On another forum I knew an American of Irish ancestry, same age as me, who got a huge tattoo on his chest supporting the IRA. What do you call people like that, plastic Paddy's? I apologize on behalf of my country for all the douchebags who embarrass us and you on a regular basis.


You call people like that scum. Anyone in the who still supports the IRA in this day and age is just as medieval in their thinking as the pro-lifers. The IRA have just as much to answer for as the Catholic Church over here.

My dad would probably take a swing at that fellow you know :P



#60
Jason Fox

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Well I was too lazy to read the comments... sorry.... but read the topic, and that really kind of angers me, because I am sort of "pro-abortion," since I don't believe it is anyone's right to make choices for you. This is the extreme of that scenario. They literally should have no right to just refuse her, and then the consequences turned out to be quite bad.



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