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Woman Dies After Abortion Request Is "Refused" At Galway Hospital

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#1
Vesper

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Okay, other mods are probably going to hate me for this one, but there was nobody around to ask so I did it anyway.

Here's a link to the news article: http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland-20321741

Basically this woman died on Sunday night after experiencing difficulties with her first pregnancy. She requested an inducement but was told, because the foetus was still alive, and she was in Catholic country, she couldn't do that.

What are your thoughts on this? Clearly this is an extreme case but I suppose it could be applied to other situations as well. If you put the boot on the other foot, however, is it fair to ask someone who doesn't believe in abortion, to carry one out? What about their stances and alignment?




Note to members: This is not a place to slag off/attack other people's views, stances, language (specific or otherwise) etc. If you do this the topic will be closed immediately and further action may be taken. Play nicely.



Note to mods: We can keep an eye on it, we haven't had this debate for a while and I thought it was relevant vis the news piece. If it turns into a slanging match we can close immediately.

#2
November's Storms

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I was hoping this wouldn't become international news. Shows how backwards, barbaric and simply idiotic our society still is. Ashamed to be Irish on a day like today. I'm heading to a protest in Dublin in support of Savita soon. Similar rallies are happening in Cork, Galway, London, Edinburgh etc.

I'm going there now, going to be tweeting updates and pictures if you want to follow me here https://twitter.com/StephenEamonn.

One minor bright light on such a dark day is that this may be the issue that finally tackles the abortion issue in Ireland.
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#3
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I was hoping this wouldn't become international news. Shows how backwards, barbaric and simply idiotic our society still is. Ashamed to be Irish on a day like today. I'm heading to a protest in Dublin in support of Savita soon. Similar rallies are happening in Cork, Galway, London, Edinburgh etc.

I'm going there now, going to be tweeting updates and pictures if you want to follow me here https://twitter.com/StephenEamonn.

One minor bright light on such a dark day is that this may be the issue that finally tackles the abortion issue in Ireland.


I know you're quite an activist on this issue (you've been to rallies before, right?). What's the general level of support for/against like? How close do you reckon Ireland is to a change in the law etc?

#4
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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Why would we hate on you for it? It's a valid debate, going to once again show that the "none whatsoever" stance on abortion is antiquated, hateful, and sometimes dangerous or fatal.

#5
Ritz

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Its all over the Indian news channels too.

#6
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Faith over life? Nah.
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#7
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Why would we hate on you for it? It's a valid debate, going to once again show that the "none whatsoever" stance on abortion is antiquated, hateful, and sometimes dangerous or fatal.


Just because it usually descends into a hate filled, biley spam thread. :P

Faith over life? Nah.


And yet that's what martyrs have been doing for millennia...

Slightly off topic but kinda the same thing, except I suppose that's their choice. Rather than inflicting their beliefs on someone else... but could it work backwards as well? If the law forced a Catholic hospital to allow abortions, does that go against their human rights of free will/choice etc.?

#8
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In such situations in India, the decision is left with the family. Whether they want to save the mother or the child. Its not decided by the hospital.

#9
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And yet that's what martyrs have been doing for millennia...

Slightly off topic but kinda the same thing, except I suppose that's their choice. Rather than inflicting their beliefs on someone else... but could it work backwards as well? If the law forced a Catholic hospital to allow abortions, does that go against their human rights of free will/choice etc.?

Well the doctor was the believer, not the baby or mother, yet the baby and the upcoming family was the ones who paid for it.

#10
Céadóg

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Even more than usual, today I feel more ashamed to be Irish than ever.

I've been following the fallout of this all day, and while most people are disgusted by this, I'm ashamed to say that there are still Catholic pro-lifers out there who claim that this is being blown out of proportion for political gain.

The most awful part of this is that while what her doctors did is morally reprehensible, under Irish law their actions are completely justified.

In a recent interview in Time magazine, our Taoiseach (Prime Minister), Enda Kenny, said that he personally felt that abortion was fundamentally wrong, and he would never support legislation for it to be introduced. Sadly, the positions of the 3 major political parties in Ireland are the same on this. We may mock American Republicans for their medieval views, but in reality we are no better over here.

I have spent the afternoon emailing my local politicians, requesting that they take action. As of now, only one has replied. If any Irish people wish to contact their TD's about this, please follow this link.

If people wish to read some Irish reaction to this, here are some links to the online news site TheJournal.ie.

Calls for X Case legislation after woman denied an abortion dies in Galway hospital

Savita death ‘not caused by Ireland’s ban on abortion’ – Youth Defence

Bacik says ‘legislation is clearly necessary’ amid outcry over Savita death

Savita: Abortion report completed as FF calls for independent inquiry

Posted Image Posted Image

R.I.P. Savita

#11
Vesper

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In such situations in India, the decision is left with the family. Whether they want to save the mother or the child. Its not decided by the hospital.


What are the laws in India vis abortion? Is it completely legal etc?

#12
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Slightly off topic but kinda the same thing, except I suppose that's their choice. Rather than inflicting their beliefs on someone else... but could it work backwards as well? If the law forced a Catholic hospital to allow abortions, does that go against their human rights of free will/choice etc.?


In a circumstance where the life of an actual human is at stake, yes they should be forced to save the life of the actual human. Everyone take note of the fact that fetus is now dead as well.

In less urgent, non-emergency circumstances, the Catholic hospital should at least be obliged refer them to a secular place where they can go have an abortion. And if there are none then that needs to change.
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#13
lizziebix

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The doctors should stand trial for her death. I'm so pissed at this story. I cannot believe this is happening in civilized society in the 21st century.




Sorry, Bryony, I probably won't be hanging out checking this thread as it's such an awful topic to me. But I think it's a great one for discussion.
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#14
Ritz

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What are the laws in India vis abortion? Is it completely legal etc?


Nope. It is illegal. Even determining the sex of the foetus is illegal in India.

#15
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Even more than usual, today I feel more ashamed to be Irish than ever.

I've been following the fallout of this all day, and while most people are disgusted by this, I'm ashamed to say that there are still Catholic pro-lifers out there who claim that this is being blown out of proportion for political gain.

The most awful part of this is that while what her doctors did is morally reprehensible, under Irish law their actions are completely justified.

In a recent interview in Time magazine, our Taoiseach (Prime Minister), Enda Kenny, said that he personally felt that abortion was fundamentally wrong, and he would never support legislation for it to be introduced. Sadly, the positions of the 3 major political parties in Ireland are the same on this. We may mock American Republicans for their medieval views, but in reality we are no better over here.

I have spent the afternoon emailing my local politicians, requesting that they take action. As of now, only one has replied. If any Irish people wish to contact their TD's about this, please follow this link.

If people wish to read some Irish reaction to this, here are some links to the online news site TheJournal.ie.



How can people deny that it was the lack of a termination that caused her death?

For what I understand, the foetus actually died on Wednesday and yet she was still refused an inducement?

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#16
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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Slightly off topic but kinda the same thing, except I suppose that's their choice. Rather than inflicting their beliefs on someone else... but could it work backwards as well? If the law forced a Catholic hospital to allow abortions, does that go against their human rights of free will/choice etc.?


Leave it to the individual doctor. Doctor A doesn't have to perform abortions, but the hospital administrator can't penalize Doctor B for his willingness to do so in certain circumstances. I have no problem with a doctor not wanting to conduct abortions for 18-year-olds who get knocked up while drunk, or women who don't want to give birth to a baby with a cleft palate. My own thoughts aside, I can understand a doctor not wanting to perform an "abortion of convenience". It seems to me, though, that the Hippocratic Oath binds doctors to act in the best interest of their patient. If the patient is going to carry a rape or incest baby to term and be reminded of that trauma for the rest of their life, it's in their best interest to abort. If life-threatening complications are expected, abortion is the only option. Any doctor who would refuse to conduct an abortion in a situation threatening the life of the mother does not need to be practicing.

Also, the mother is the patient. The fetus is a tumor.

#17
fukingcounterstrike

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My question is as soon as she was denied medical attention in Ireland, why not seek medical attention somewhere else? Obviously the story didn't cover a lot. I didn't pick up a date when she initially went to the doctor about it. But yeah, questions.

#18
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In a circumstance where the life of an actual human is at stake, yes they should be forced to save the life of the actual human. Everyone take note of the fact that fetus is now dead as well.

In less urgent, non-emergency circumstances, the Catholic hospital should at least be obliged refer them to a secular place where they can go have an abortion. And if there are none then that needs to change.


There are none. Abortion is 100% illegal in the Republic of Ireland as long as the fetus has a heartbeat. If you want an abortion, you have to travel to Belfast in Northern Ireland.

#19
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Nope. It is illegal. Even determining the sex of the foetus is illegal in India.


The sex part, is that something to do with preference of families to what sex the child is assigned? #offtopic

#20
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Why would we hate on you for it? It's a valid debate, going to once again show that the "none whatsoever" stance on abortion is antiquated, hateful, and sometimes dangerous or fatal.

Agreed on both counts.

Well this is just awful, I knew abortion wasn't freely available in Ireland but I always assumed if it came down to the life of the mother being in danger her life took precedence. So sad. As Stephen said I hope at least that this will force action to be taken on the abortion issue.

#21
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There are none. Abortion is 100% illegal in the Republic of Ireland as long as the fetus has a heartbeat. If you want an abortion, you have to travel to Belfast in Northern Ireland.


Is it completely legal in Northern Ireland then (as part of the UK)? I'm a bit rusty on the facts...

#22
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How can people deny that it was the lack of a termination that caused her death?

For what I understand, the foetus actually died on Wednesday and yet she was still refused an inducement?


By the time the foetus had died, she was too far gone to be saved. Her miscarriage began on Wednesday, but the foetus didn't pass naturally.

My question is as soon as she was denied medical attention in Ireland, why not seek medical attention somewhere else? Obviously the story didn't cover a lot. I didn't pick up a date when she initially went to the doctor about it. But yeah, questions.


I can only assume that she was too ill to travel. The sad part is, she was 3 hours drive away from Northern Ireland, where she could have had the abortion safely and legally.

#23
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Agreed on both counts.

Well this is just awful, I knew abortion wasn't freely available in Ireland but I always assumed if it came down to the life of the mother being in danger her life took precedence. So sad. As Stephen said I hope at least that this will force action to be taken on the abortion issue.


It says in the article that that is the case, clearly the acute danger to the mother was overlooked in this case.

#24
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In a recent interview in Time magazine, our Taoiseach (Prime Minister), Enda Kenny, said that he personally felt that abortion was fundamentally wrong, and he would never support legislation for it to be introduced. Sadly, the positions of the 3 major political parties in Ireland are the same on this. We may mock American Republicans for their medieval views, but in reality we are no better over here.


Well the thing you need to understand about the USA is abortion is legal largely thanks to the checks and balance system of government we have, very few states allowed for legal abortion before the Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade which essentially ended in the court mandating every state allow legal abortion whether they wanted to or not.

The judiciary defends our liberties from medieval politicians, if it were solely a popular issue then you might see abortion illegal in a lot of "red states," plus there are still a shitload of awful things politicians do to try to stop women from exercising reproductive rights, like mandating a transvaginal ultrasound before having an abortion for no medical reason.

#25
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Is it completely legal in Northern Ireland then (as part of the UK)? I'm a bit rusty on the facts...


Yes.

#26
Trotsky

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My question is as soon as she was denied medical attention in Ireland, why not seek medical attention somewhere else? Obviously the story didn't cover a lot. I didn't pick up a date when she initially went to the doctor about it. But yeah, questions.


Considering the fact that she died I suppose she didn't have that luxury.

#27
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Leave it to the individual doctor. Doctor A doesn't have to perform abortions, but the hospital administrator can't penalize Doctor B for his willingness to do so in certain circumstances. I have no problem with a doctor not wanting to conduct abortions for 18-year-olds who get knocked up while drunk, or women who don't want to give birth to a baby with a cleft palate. My own thoughts aside, I can understand a doctor not wanting to perform an "abortion of convenience". It seems to me, though, that the Hippocratic Oath binds doctors to act in the best interest of their patient. If the patient is going to carry a rape or incest baby to term and be reminded of that trauma for the rest of their life, it's in their best interest to abort. If life-threatening complications are expected, abortion is the only option. Any doctor who would refuse to conduct an abortion in a situation threatening the life of the mother does not need to be practicing.

Also, the mother is the patient. The fetus is a tumor.


Heh, we differ on the "abortion of convience" thing I see... But I agree with the rest of your statement.

Considering the fact that she died I suppose she didn't have that luxury.


She didn't die until Sunday. She was denied treatment on Wednesday(?).

#28
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She didn't die until Sunday. She was denied treatment on Wednesday(?).

So I did miss that in there somewhere then. That helps.

#29
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Well the thing you need to understand about the USA is abortion is legal largely thanks to the checks and balance system of government we have, very few states allowed for legal abortion before the Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade which essentially ended in the court mandating every state allow legal abortion whether they wanted to or not.

The judiciary defends our liberties from medieval politicians, if it were solely a popular issue then you might see abortion illegal in a lot of "red states," plus there are still a shitload of awful things politicians do to try to stop women from exercising reproductive rights, like mandating a transvaginal ultrasound before having an abortion for no medical reason.


Even in our last census, 84% of the population defined themselves as Catholic. Although it's power is fading fast, the Church still holds a much stronger grasp than we'd like over political and social life here. Our politicians are terrified of making changes that might isolate our older more conservative religious voter base. Until we get a new brand of politician in Ireland, the only change we'll see will come from sad cases like these.

#30
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She didn't die until Sunday. She was denied treatment on Wednesday(?).


Which might be the case of thousands of other people denied treatment for thousands of other conditions, doesn't take the blood off their hands.



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