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Where is the line on humour? --Daniel Tosh controversy --

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#61
Trotsky

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So as long as someone offends calmly and without apparent anger, that changes everything? That is fucking stupid, it certainly doesn't change how intimidated the person targeted might feel. Your hypothetical was also completely ridiculous - and there's also one more difference. Racist violence, at least in the United States, in on the decline. Certainly it isn't non-existent, you can just look at the Trayvon Martin case as an example, but it isn't as prevalent as it used to be, there's a major difference between America now and the 40's South in terms of how racism manifests.

Rape, on the other hand, is happening every hour of every day, in every state, in every country, and can happen to anyone regardless of their circumstances, skin color, or gender. Also, another flaw in your moronic thought experiment, Tosh wasn't targeting a person by joking they were a rapist, he was saying a person should be raped.

Basically you showed up in this thread, attacked a strawman since no one here actually called for censorship, and then decided racist violence is worse than misogynistic violence based on your own personal preferences. What a fucking contribution.

#62
crock6000

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So as long as someone offends calmly and without apparent anger, that changes everything? That is fucking stupid, it certainly doesn't change how intimidated the person targeted might feel. Your hypothetical was also completely ridiculous - and there's also one more difference. Racist violence, at least in the United States, in on the decline. Certainly it isn't non-existent, you can just look at the Trayvon Martin case as an example, but it isn't as prevalent as it used to be, there's a major difference between America now and the 40's South in terms of how racism manifests.

Rape, on the other hand, is happening every hour of every day, in every state, in every country, and can happen to anyone regardless of their circumstances, skin color, or gender. Also, another flaw in your moronic thought experiment, Tosh wasn't targeting a person by joking they were a rapist, he was saying a person should be raped.

Basically you showed up in this thread, attacked a strawman since no one here actually called for censorship, and then decided racist violence is worse than misogynistic violence based on your own personal preferences. What a fucking contribution.


And with this post I cannot decide if you are stupid, ignorant or an asshole but I'm going with all three.

Attack me for my opinion. Class.

Wouldn't it be funny if we all raped John?

EDIT: I was about to erase this because it is inflammatory (but since it's been alluded to in another post, I'll leave it) but I was only escalating yours which has been subtext since you started responding to me.

And this ENTIRE thread is about censorship so I don't know what you're talking about. I strongly disagree with your view on these and that's fine but go have a look back, you were the one that was being condescending and then capped it off with "What a fucking contribution" line when I am amazed that you really can't see the difference between the Tosh and Richards lines. To me, only a racist wouldn't see the difference. Here's your comeback: You must be a rapist then.

EDIT 2: I proactively apologize for calling you names and shit. I was agitated by your "fucking contribution" line and overreacted. Hope you accept it.

#63
captain peroxide

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Jeez, guys, relax. This was a civil discussion until you started insulting each other. Insult each other's arguments, fine, but leave the ad hominems out of it, yeah?

#64
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Jeez, guys, relax. This was a civil discussion until you started insulting each other. Insult each other's arguments, fine, but leave the ad hominems out of it, yeah?


I apologize to the forum for letting loose but I feel I was provoked.

After all, I am only man, and sort of an asshole.

#65
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Or TV shows like Law & Order SVU (I think that's what the sexual crimes one is called). It's about rape, and it could trigger someone, but I don't see people making a huge deal about it, on the contrary, it is quite a popular TV show.

Some idiot on twitter said "how come it is okay for actors to play rapists but not okay for comedians to joke about them?" in defence to this. Of course that's stupid because the actors are portrayed as menacing and villainous or whatever, and that role exists to make light of a problem that is very real in society. Another example of this would be "how come it's okay for people to play drug addicts but not okay for people to joke about ODing to death?" even though I disagree with the statement. Completely different and one of them can be highly offensive.

In fact I did flip channels to an episode of Law and Order the other day and it had an illegal immigrant that was a key witness to a crime (rape, incidentally enough) and they needed her to testify. They were trying to convince her because she was refusing, fearing deportation. Then she went off on one about what it's like for her back home and she was saying the most horrible things about her 5 year old daughter being raped by a gang of men and things like that that I had to change channels. Even though the kind of situation she was depicting is indeed reality for a lot of people right now.

Anyway, yeah.

#66
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Why is nobody outraged at Louis CK who says here on an HBO special "You shouldn't rape someone...unless of course you want to fuck them and they won't let you".

I'll tell you why, because the joke is funny and it didn't go viral as a news story or else this same discussion would be about Louis. What is ok with a person or not should lay with the person.



or



Dave Chapelle thinks serial rape is funny.



#67
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“the point i was making before i was heckled is there are awful things in the world but you can still make jokes about them” - tosh

Rape isn’t one of them. Rape is never funny, because it is extreme trauma. It’s a violently aggressive tactic used to hold power over another person. It’s an invasive violation of personal space and unsolicited sexual contact. Chances are, the person has experienced severe psychological and physical trauma.
But hey, if its in the name of comedy, who cares about the mental health of others, right? It’s totally OK to incite psychological harm on others, because it’s funny, right? I’m sure you’d find rape jokes hilarious if you experienced that kind trauma. It wouldn’t be upsetting at all.
Mr. Tosh, I’m sure you’d have a markedly different reaction if that woman’s reaction was a PTSD response. You know, the kind where the person shakes uncontrollably and/or lashes out violently because they are re-experiencing their trauma. Think it doesn’t happen? Think again. I bet you’d feel like the biggest asshole on the face of the planet for causing one of your fans that kind of distress. Or would you? Really, I think you’d just laugh it off as a joke. I mean, trauma is funny, right?

-- SOURCE.

I don't think I could explain this any better.

#68
Trotsky

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Why is nobody outraged at Louis CK who says here on an HBO special "You shouldn't rape someone...unless of course you want to fuck them and they won't let you".


The issue here is that Tosh threatened a specific member of the audience with rape, which the others did not do.

#69
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The issue here is that Tosh threatened a specific member of the audience with rape, which the others did not do.


Well there is the fundamental difference in our view on this then isn't it?

If you think that Tosh actually "threatened" her with rape than we will never agree.

If I thought that, I would advocate him being arrested and charged with attempted rape which is a major felony.

And finally, and again, I think that Tosh's stand up is extremely racist, misogynistic, and narcissistic and I have probably seen him do stand up over 50x in the last 7 years.

My cousin Jay is the promoter for the Tuesday night LF 8pm show and I used to go every Tuesday for years before my kid was born and I can tell you that he is sometimes funny but always the adjectives I just posted. This story only exists because of the media. There are many comedians with much worse jokes that are there all the time. I don't even like his humor any more so I am not defending him out of some allegiance.

And to say this conversation is not about censorship is to say that censorship exists in a vacuum. It doesn't.

#70
Graysen

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Yeah, and so is everything else in the world. That doesn't mean it should be off-limits for comedy.

I see your point, but if a comedian doesn't want to be an epic douche bag, they shouldn't make rape victims the butt of a joke.
However, rape is very different from many of the horrors in this world; it is severely traumatizing and affects approximately 1 out of 4 college girls. Those stats are based solely on reports and many, many, many rapes go unreported, so those stats should be significantly higher. If a comedian is smart, they'd leave rape out of it.

#71
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Wouldn't it be funny if we all raped John?

EDIT: I was about to erase this because it is inflammatory (but since it's been alluded to in another post, I'll leave it) but I was only escalating yours which has been subtext since you started responding to me.

And this ENTIRE thread is about censorship so I don't know what you're talking about. I strongly disagree with your view on these and that's fine but go have a look back, you were the one that was being condescending and then capped it off with "What a fucking contribution" line when I am amazed that you really can't see the difference between the Tosh and Richards lines. To me, only a racist wouldn't see the difference. Here's your comeback: You must be a rapist then.

EDIT 2: I proactively apologize for calling you names and shit. I was agitated by your "fucking contribution" line and overreacted. Hope you accept it.


1. You still don't even know my view, because if you read my first post you would have known I don't feel any anger over what Tosh said personally, nor what Richards said, but I have empathy for the victims in either case and understand why they feel the way they do.

2. No, this thread is not about censorship at all. I said multiple times, Tosh is a fucking douchebag, and he has a constitutionally protected right to continue to be a douchebag. This is pretty much the opinion of everyone here. If someone in this thread says "Tosh should be arrested/fined", or "The FCC should make sure rape jokes can never be on TV or radio", then you don't have to call them on that, because I will, because I support free speech. Here's the deal though, free speech gives Tosh the right to make rape jokes, it gives all the people offended by him, even the most vitriolic ones, to reply with anger in any way, it gives you the right to post attacking a strawman and completely ignore the argument at hand, and it gives me the right to call you on the bullshit.

3. "To me, only a racist wouldn't see the difference. Here's your comeback: You must be a rapist then." This is what you said, and it makes no fucking sense. One, I never called you a rapist, not even close. Two, I never said "what Richards did was okay", I said both jokingly incited the audience to violence against their target. So just to be totally clear, I never said you were a rapist. I never even said you were a misogynist, I just said you "decided racist violence is worse than misogynistic violence based on your own personal preferences", which is factually true.

4. I don't give a shit about you saying "Wouldn't it be funny if we all raped John?" because you're trying to come off as witty. Doesn't bother me one bit, only your complete stubbornness and putting words in my mouth.

If you think that Tosh actually "threatened" her with rape than we will never agree.


She felt threatened, and that is the point.

#72
crock6000

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1. You still don't even know my view, because if you read my first post you would have known I don't feel any anger over what Tosh said personally, nor what Richards said, but I have empathy for the victims in either case and understand why they feel the way they do.

2. No, this thread is not about censorship at all. I said multiple times, Tosh is a fucking douchebag, and he has a constitutionally protected right to continue to be a douchebag. This is pretty much the opinion of everyone here. If someone in this thread says "Tosh should be arrested/fined", or "The FCC should make sure rape jokes can never be on TV or radio", then you don't have to call them on that, because I will, because I support free speech. Here's the deal though, free speech gives Tosh the right to make rape jokes, it gives all the people offended by him, even the most vitriolic ones, to reply with anger in any way, it gives you the right to post attacking a strawman and completely ignore the argument at hand, and it gives me the right to call you on the bullshit.

3. "To me, only a racist wouldn't see the difference. Here's your comeback: You must be a rapist then." This is what you said, and it makes no fucking sense. One, I never called you a rapist, not even close. Two, I never said "what Richards did was okay", I said both jokingly incited the audience to violence against their target. So just to be totally clear, I never said you were a rapist. I never even said you were a misogynist, I just said you "decided racist violence is worse than misogynistic violence based on your own personal preferences", which is factually true.

4. I don't give a shit about you saying "Wouldn't it be funny if we all raped John?" because you're trying to come off as witty. Doesn't bother me one bit, only your complete stubbornness and putting words in my mouth.



She felt threatened, and that is the point.


Dude, you honestly miss my point on everything. I never said you called me any of the things you said you didn't say. LOL at that sentence. I was just stating a logical retort. There is a major difference between what Richards and Tosh did. AND, you DID in fact JUST say that Tosh threatened the girl. He did not, IMO do that either.

Now the FCC, the FCC does in fact say you can't make rape jokes, or cuss on the radio. It's the only government agency that for some reason doesn't have to answer to the Constitution.

It's fine, we just disagree. I don't want to engage this conversation much anymore because the spinning in circles is making my balls itch.

Carlin, take me out again.

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#73
Kayfabe

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Well there is the fundamental difference in our view on this then isn't it?

If you think that Tosh actually "threatened" her with rape than we will never agree.

Well, it's not really a matter of opinion. The lady felt threatened when he said that, so he threatened her. If it was "wouldn't it be funny if someone slit her throat right now?" it would be the same thing. He shouldn't be charged with anything because feeling threatened is a part of life and it often happens even in situations (like this one) where we aren't actually in any immediate danger.
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#74
crock6000

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She felt threatened, and that is the point.


OK, so you just added this.

You think she felt threatened because she said it. Personally, I doubt she felt threatened that she was going to be raped by the Laugh Factory crowd or the comedian on stage. But you think she felt that way, even though, like you, she is highly motivated by the sensitive content, not actual fear. Before you think I'm some heartless asshole, I know people that have been raped and I have no care for rape jokes, rape or anything else regarding rape, but what is your point here?

Is it just that Tosh is an ass? Because there you will get no argument from me. I know better than you that he is indeed in actuality an asshole but what do you think? You think he should be banned from Comedy Central and Laugh Factory?

What is your ending to this terrible debacle that has affected us all so horribly?

There are MUCH worse jokes and MUCH worse responses to hecklers and audience members that get offended and say something almost every week at the LF and nobody gets banned. It might happen here because of the publicity but I highly doubt it but it happens all the time and the girl was just pissed and he said some more shit to make it worse. He was trying to be funny.

Richards wasn't. She was angry, like you, not threatened.

Well, it's not really a matter of opinion. The lady felt threatened when he said that, so he threatened her. If it was "wouldn't it be funny if someone slit her throat right now?" it would be the same thing. He shouldn't be charged with anything because feeling threatened is a part of life and it often happens even in situations (like this one) where we aren't actually in any immediate danger.


It's not a matter of opinion because she said it? I hope you're never a juror on a trial for something I'm defending.

And actually it is a crime to make someone feel threatened by an act of malice.

Anyway, I'm bailing out of this conversation. I do not condone people feeling bad about sensitive issues. I do not like Daniel Tosh. I somehow got into a macro-debate with a micro-debater (@ John) so it's become a cyclical foolish argument.

The big picture is what I'm defending here, not Daniel Tosh.

#75
Trotsky

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Why do you think the intention of the comedian matters so much, as if a rimshot drumroll makes the difference between "a nigger upside with a fork up his ass" and "wouldn't it be funny if 5 people raped this woman right now?" being funny or offensive.

I have given up on making you realize this was never about censorship to begin with, so I will just move on to my other point: you, for whatever reasons, have subjectively decided Richard's racism is worse than Tosh's misogyny, if you decided that on the basis of Richard's vitriol, fine. But, there is no objective reason why rape victims or those with empathy for rape victims should be any less offended than black people or those who have empathy for black victims of racism.

In fact, that man in Richards' audience could be seen as feeling less threatened since he stood his ground and continued to argue with him, and since a sizable portion of the crowd immediately reacted negatively to Richards, unlike Tosh's crowd where there was apparently huge applause for his comments. If you can't see why this woman, who could very well have been a rape victim, would rationally feel threatened, then I have no idea what is going through your mind.

And I fucking swear, if you interpret this post as me defending or justifying Michael Richards, then you seriously have no reading comprehension.

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#76
crock6000

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Why do you think the intention of the comedian matters so much, as if a rimshot drumroll makes the difference between "a nigger upside with a fork up his ass" and "wouldn't it be funny if 5 people raped this woman right now?" being funny or offensive.

I have given up on making you realize this was never about censorship to begin with, so I will just move on to my other point: you, for whatever reasons, have subjectively decided Richard's racism is worse than Tosh's misogyny, if you decided that on the basis of Richard's vitriol, fine. But, there is no objective reason why rape victims or those with empathy for rape victims should be any less offended than black people or those who have empathy for black victims of racism.

In fact, that man in Richards' audience could be seen as feeling less threatened since he stood his ground and continued to argue with him, and since a sizable portion of the crowd immediately reacted negatively to Richards, unlike Tosh's crowd where there was apparently huge applause for his comments. If you can't see why this woman, who could very well have been a rape victim, would rationally feel threatened, then I have no idea what is going through your mind.

And I fucking swear, if you interpret this post as me defending or justifying Michael Richards, then you seriously have no reading comprehension.


A couple things.

First. Congrats on finally putting together a somewhat cohesive argument that I can at least see your perspective.

However, on that and every post you've done, you pepper it with insults and obnoxiousness. I was actually reading this post and thinking "I understand where you are coming from and you're not being completely condescending doing it" and then, yet again, you get completely condescending.

Let me propose this to you, EVERY SINGLE time you have posted the n-word, I have felt uneasy and wondered if you were in fact a racist. I am not accusing you of being a racist nor am I sure at all that you are (or even think you are) but I am uncomfortable with that word for whatever reason (I'm not black) but even though I felt uneasy about it, I haven't pointed it out because I wouldn't. It's not me. You are free to represent yourself however you want and I even try to hold my own "prejudices" about that word at bay.

Is there any difference between that and you condemning anyone that makes a rape joke? You might be right. Maybe each one of them should but what it really is, like a lot of people, INCLUDING myself is you just don't like Tosh so for some reason you feel the need to adamantly defend your position instead of just saying it once and letting our difference of opinion ride.

As to your remark about intention, intention is the basis of all law dude. If there is no intent, there is no crime (with some minor exception, like gross negligence). Not only do you have to have intent to commit a crime, but you have to have mal intent "mens rea" meaning a guilty mind. So intent in matters of persecution are of paramount importance.

You keep throwing the "n-word" around as much as you want, and I'll defend a comedian's freedom to make jokes about whatever they want.

I guarantee if we both keep doing that, plenty of people won't like either of us and I'm okay with that. I stand up for what I believe in.

EDIT: And finally, stop insulting my intelligence. My reading comprehension is just fine. Aren't you a fucking mod? Why the hell have you insulted me like 10x? You are supposed to stop people from insulting, not do it. Lol. I don't give a shit TBH, just saying.

#77
captain peroxide

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I see your point, but if a comedian doesn't want to be an epic douche bag, they shouldn't make rape victims the butt of a joke.
However, rape is very different from many of the horrors in this world; it is severely traumatizing and affects approximately 1 out of 4 college girls. Those stats are based solely on reports and many, many, many rapes go unreported, so those stats should be significantly higher. If a comedian is smart, they'd leave rape out of it.


You can't quantify terrible things. World War II killed over 70 million people, yet we still joke about that. You can't say "this terrible thing is worse than this other terrible thing." Unless a comedian knows a specific person is a victim of rape and makes fun of them for it, I don't see a problem with rape jokes, as long as they're funny.
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#78
Trotsky

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You keep throwing the "n-word" around as much as you want, and I'll defend a comedian's freedom to make jokes about whatever they want.


I am throwing around the n-word by saying "nigger" as in, fully typing out the actual word Richards used while debating about it? What?! By that logic, Wikipedia is a porn website because they have pictures of human genitals.

And I thought you were anti-censorship? But the thing is, I don't like the use of the word "nigger", I don't think people should be saying it to others or about others. However, I choose the type out the full word when referring to it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

#79
crock6000

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I am throwing around the n-word by saying "nigger" as in, fully typing out the actual word Richards used while debating about it? What?! By that logic, Wikipedia is a porn website because they have pictures of human genitals.

And I thought you were anti-censorship? But the thing is, I don't like the use of the word "nigger", I don't think people should be saying it to others or about others. However, I choose the type out the full word when referring to it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


i agree. Thats the point.

I said, I hold my own feelings at bay because I know there is nothing inherently wrong with the word, ITS THE CONTEXT.

We agree. Let's end.



#80
deletethisaccount

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He handled the situation poorly, but what he said is nothing to get worked up about. People care about what comedians say way too much.

#81
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I'm gonna need everyone to read this, thanks. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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#82
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Let me propose this to you, EVERY SINGLE time you have posted the n-word, I have felt uneasy and wondered if you were in fact a racist. I am not accusing you of being a racist nor am I sure at all that you are (or even think you are) but I am uncomfortable with that word for whatever reason (I'm not black) but even though I felt uneasy about it, I haven't pointed it out because I wouldn't. It's not me. You are free to represent yourself however you want and I even try to hold my own "prejudices" about that word at bay.


I'm not saying you shouldn't be uncomfortable with that word, I certainly. But he's simply being accurate, saying what Michael Richards said. This is a Green Day fansite, are you uncomfortable when Billie Joe sings that word in American Eulogy?

Also, I think it was you that said it, so I can't agree with 'all-or-nothing' censorship. Should we let little children onto Redtube or ban all pornography?

#83
captain peroxide

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Also, I think it was you that said it, so I can't agree with 'all-or-nothing' censorship. Should we let little children onto Redtube or ban all pornography?


That is...not a good analogy. Just because something isn't censored doesn't mean everyone has to see it. It just means it CAN be seen if you choose to.

#84
sassafrasroot

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Another aspect of this issue is that heckling is just not a good way to react to something that bothers you about a comic's routine. If you don't like the show, leave. Of course this woman is entitled to her opinion and her discomfort at whatever joke he made, but speaking up like that during the show will usually only cause things to escalate and get worse. A comic is not the type of person who's going to say, halfway through their act, "gosh, you're right, I'll never do that bit again." That doesn't excuse Tosh's response, but some kind of escalation is pretty par for the course if you interrupt.


This.
I am not sure what this girl expected his response to be, but she should have realized it wouldn't be a positive one. Although I think that Tosh went overboard with his comeback, you have to realize this is Daniel Tosh we're talking about. He doesn't exactly have a reputation for being polite or well tempered.

I am really confused as to why this girl would even go to a Daniel Tosh show if she is easily offended. This isn't the first time that Tosh has made jokes about this topic, and it's certainly not the first time that he has used offensive or edgy material in his routines. Honestly, this story doesn't really shock me. His joke was awful and sick, but not certainly not shocking.

#85
Floyd Pinkerton

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So, that article Mar posted said he was fired...is that actually true?

#86
chewychorizo

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All I can say on the matter is that certain topics like rape, murder, genocide- whatever it is- can be joked about. I mean, what's wrong with laughter (to quote South Park)? Nobody is personally laughing at a rape victim, they're making a joke about a topic that affects a lot of people, but it's not as if all comedians who joke about rape pull up actual survivors and go ''lol you got raped''. No. That's why, in my opinion, they are not offensive. Maybe some survivors of World War II or rape find the humour in these particular jokes, because maybe laughter is a good way of dealing with things. Rape isn't the only thing that happens in the world. Lots of things happen.

Also, for the record, I'm not attempting to belittle rape in the slightest. I understand it's a horrible, unthinkable act, but what I believe is that jokes are jokes. That's it. I believe that some people just get offended at a lot of things. You can't ban every single racist/rape joke just because some people may feel uncomfortable. That's my view.

Also, the joke in question wasn't even funny, and I agree his comeback was completely unnecessary, so I'm not advocating this guy.
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#87
Floyd Pinkerton

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A friend of mine jokes about rape all the time, but he makes it funny. If it's tasteful, I can deal with it. If it crosses the line, like Tosh did, then I have a problem.

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captain peroxide

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If it's tasteful, I can deal with it.


No. If it's funny, and done well, you can deal with it. Rape jokes are never going to be tasteful. They are always going to be crossing the line. It takes a comic of great skill and subtlety to do that without pissing people off.

#89
johndorkian

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I am really confused as to why this girl would even go to a Daniel Tosh show if she is easily offended. This isn't the first time that Tosh has made jokes about this topic, and it's certainly not the first time that he has used offensive or edgy material in his routines.

she wasn't familiar with his work, and just went along on a whim with a friend.

for the record, i think rape jokes are acceptable when the butt of the joke is a rapist or rape culture itself. the joke daniel tosh made originally was awful, and his comeback was, essentially, a threat. fucking disgusted.
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#90
Floyd Pinkerton

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No. If it's funny, and done well, you can deal with it. Rape jokes are never going to be tasteful. They are always going to be crossing the line. It takes a comic of great skill and subtlety to do that without pissing people off.

That's what I meant to say.



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