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Situation Debate (Concerning Sexual Assault) (Read further)

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#1
Vesper

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I have used two common genders in these scenarios. Please apply whatever gender you feel is appropriate when reading these. I have not intentionally missed anyone out for the purpose of excluding them from the debate.

This debate came about when I was having an argument with someone over the double standards that seem (in my mind) to apply to men and women. I believe that everyone should be treated the same and no one is "inviting" anything unless they specifically say so/make it completely obvious. But where is that line drawn? Is it fair for a woman to dance topless in front of man and not expect him to react? Is it fair for a man to act sexily towards a woman and not expect her to react?

Situation One:

At a gig. There's people down in the mosh pit, it's extremely hot and sweaty. Boy X takes his shirt off either because he is too warm or because he wishes to show off. Is he inviting sexual assault? Girl Y takes her shirt off either because she is too warm or because she wishes to show off. Is she inviting sexual assault?

Are men hardwired to think differently when they see a girl without a shirt on? Does evolution have more to do with the perception of this situation than actually thought? Does common sense vacate the mind? Is society to blame for perpetuating any of these assumptions?

Situation Two:

At a party. A girl is dancing sexily. Is she inviting sexual assault? A boy is dancing sexily. Is he inviting sexual assault? Two people are drinking and a girl and boy are drunk. The boy asks the girl whether she wants to go upstairs and she says yes, they engage in foreplay, both are too drunk to communicate coherently, and they eventually have sex. Is it rape because no formal consent was given? If the girl/guy feels it was rape (when she/he is once again sober) is she/he entitled to make that statement to the police?


Please give your thoughts. But rather than just immediately taking the moral high ground or what you would expect people would want to here, give your true thoughts and feelings about the subject matter. I am aware it is a sensitive topic and please handle it as such.

#2
Sofouska

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I'm not conservative and don't wanna sound like it but I just think that no one should take their shirts off or get that drunk, to the point where they don't understand what they're doing :S
What is unfair, is that most men regard women as objects, either consciously or not! But on the other hand, I think that most women should expect to be assaulted if she's wearing almost nothing, and men should expect the same. It's just that men are the ones that will sexually assault women more often, but there have been female rapists and boys being assaulted.
To be honest I just think that everyone should behave in a way that shows that we're civilized and not animals. Drinking and partying and waking up the next day to realize that you might as well be pregnant/got a girl pregnant, isn't my idea of an 'accident', something that happens 'even to the best families' or something that shows that we have brains capable of thinking logically before doing something.
In an ideal world everyone could go around naked but it'll never be the case so both boys and girls should learn how to earn respect and not be viewed as sex toys, and how to behave, all in all. And not only how to behave, but how to treat the other gender too. The main problem is that men and women don't treat each other properly, and don't realize that there are no differences, no inequalities, it just happened that one of them got born with XX chromosomes and the other one with XY. No differences. Both are human beings. And even if a girl/boy acts in a way that he/she is likely to be sexually assaulted, then the other people should just tell them that and simply not use them.

#3
Vesper

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But surely no one invites sexual assault? Why should they? Nobody should expect to be assaulted in the same way nobody should expect to be burgled....

#4
Trotsky

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If two mature, apparently consenting people are mutually intoxicated and have sex, I don't think there is any basis for either one being accused of rape, especially since either could have claimed to be the one taken advantage of. It's quite another thing if one person is drugged by the other, or if a drunk person performs sex act on a completely unconscious partner.

On to the rest of the topic, I don't believe anyone ever invites sexual assault in any circumstance ever. I don't give a fuck if a guy is sexually assaulting a stripper who was just performing for him and she walks down a dark alley to her car completely naked and drunk, he still has ZERO justification for committing rape and should be afforded no leniency.

Men are not wild animals who are overwhelmed by some primal instinct, that is a load of bullshit. Anyone who commits rape has chosen to commit rape. I make no distinction based on how the victim was dressed or her sexual history, and I would support both subjects being banned from even being brought up in court during rape cases. No one ever invites sexual assault, that is my absolute position and I'm not moving from it.
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#5
Sofouska

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I was definitely not saying that rape is justified, partially :o Rape is completely unjustifiable. I'm only saying that women should 'protect' themselves, let's say.

#6
Daughter.of.Rage.and.Love

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In the world we live in it is necessary to protect yourself, but it shouldn't be. It's ridiculous that I couldn't walk around topless if I wanted that because I would most likely be sexually assaulted in some way because some men (or women or whatever) apparently could not control themselves. And I'm not even talking about the double standard here. Dressing revealing is not an invitation for assault, but it's almost regarded that way.

#7
Trotsky

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I was definitely not saying that rape is justified, partially http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/... Rape is completely unjustifiable. I'm only saying that women should 'protect' themselves, let's say.


I know that.

But I don't think dressing modestly is an aspect of protection. Rapists are about power and domination, not sexual attraction. On the other hand, there are important ways women can protect themselves, but mainly by staying in safe places and with others to protect them.

A woman dressed in what some will call 'slutty' clothes who is surrounded by her friends and doesn't go off somewhere dangerous alone is safer than a woman in a burqa walking alone down a dark alley in a bad part of town.

But I contend that the scantily dressed woman and the completely covered woman, each walking alone down a dark alley in a bad part of town, are in 100% equal danger of being raped.
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#8
KarlyLovesGD

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I was definitely not saying that rape is justified, partially http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/... Rape is completely unjustifiable. I'm only saying that women should 'protect' themselves, let's say.

Just remember a lot of women that are rape victims don't strut down the street in miniskirts that show off their ass. And just remember that most men that are rape victims don't strut down the streets with their tops off. Predators look for vulnerability and isolation, not particularly desirability.
Protecting one's self regarding looks can only go so far.

#9
kelly42fox

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Situation 1:
Society dictates that the female taking off her shirt would be considered scandalous and low class, assuming she is wearing a bra. If she's not wearing a bra, a whole other set of rules apply, and it would be a legal public exposure debate. The man taking off his shirt would just be low class.

The acceptance level of situations like this depend upon the forum in which the act is performed. You said a gig... In most rock music circles I run in, neither situation would be that much of a deal (again, assuming the female is wearing a bra). I think that both would elicit cat calls. I personally wouldn't care either way. I go to clubs where less than a bra on females is quite common (yes, pasties).

Situation 2:
If a person does nothing to STOP or prevent the action from occurring to them, they cannot claim it as sexual assault. By going along with a situation, they are giving their consent. This is something that a person needs to keep in mind if they are going to impair their judgement/actions by using drugs or alcohol.
A sober person taking advantage of someone's impaired state is LOW and disgusting. Depending on the situation, it is a gray area that would have to be determined on a situational basis.

All that being said...
NO ONE INVITES SEXUAL ASSAULT. Anyone who says that about someone's dress or actions is just making excuses.

#10
Daughter.of.Rage.and.Love

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When it's not necessarily about rape, but about other kinds of sexual assault (remarks, groping, ass smacking etc), if you're scantily clad you are much more likely to experience that than when you're walking around in sweatpants and a hoodie.

#11
kelly42fox

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I know that.

But I don't think dressing modestly is an aspect of protection. Rapists are about power and domination, not sexual attraction. On the other hand, there are important ways women can protect themselves, but mainly by staying in safe places and with others to protect them.

A woman dressed in what some will call 'slutty' clothes who is surrounded by her friends and doesn't go off somewhere dangerous alone is safer than a woman in a burqa walking alone down a dark alley in a bad part of town.

But I contend that the scantily dressed woman and the completely covered woman, each walking alone down a dark alley in a bad part of town, are in 100% equal danger of being raped.


I agree with this, as well. In some cases, more conservative looking women may be more at risk to a social sexual predator because they are 'more of a challenge'.

#12
xBasKetxCaSex

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As for the second one, It annoys the crap out of me when girls engage in drunken sexual activity and then whistle blow afterwards. I had a good friend of mine do that with another mutual friend. I'm sorry but alcohol is not an excuse. Because being drunk doesn't change what you want... If you can remember the incident then you were with it enough to say "no." If you said no, then get your attorney. Otherwise it was your own fucking fault. You Implied consent by going along with it. If you don't want to have to deal with a situation like this, don't get blackout drunk. I tell my friends this all the time, guys and girls. If you don't want to deal with negative consequences of drunken mistakes, whatever they may be, Don't. Black. Out. Done.

#13
johndorkian

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By going along with a situation, they are giving their consent.

NO. absolutely, unequivocally no. no, no, no, no, no, no. i don't think i can say 'no' enough times. some people just freeze in this situation; in fact, most people do. in no way, shape, or form, should that ever be considered consent.
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#14
Black Dynamite

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What is unfair, is that most men regard women as objects, either consciously or not!


:huh: Do we?

#15
xBasKetxCaSex

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some people just freeze in this situation;

Freezing in the situation and going along with it are two completely different things.

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#16
johndorkian

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Freezing in the situation and going along with it are two completely different things.

either can be misconstrued for the other, in my opinion.
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#17
xBasKetxCaSex

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What is unfair, is that most men regard women as objects, either consciously or not!


I have a creeping suspicion that this is a magnificent fallacy

either can be misconstrued for the other, in my opinion.

Going along with it implies not stopping, not hesitating. "freezing" by definition would imply locking up, hesitating, wanting it to stop.

#18
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As for the second one, It annoys the crap out of me when girls engage in drunken sexual activity and then whistle blow afterwards. I had a good friend of mine do that with another mutual friend. I'm sorry but alcohol is not an excuse. Because being drunk doesn't change what you want... If you can remember the incident then you were with it enough to say "no." If you said no, then get your attorney. Otherwise it was your own fucking fault. You Implied consent by going along with it. If you don't want to have to deal with a situation like this, don't get blackout drunk. I tell my friends this all the time, guys and girls. If you don't want to deal with negative consequences of drunken mistakes, whatever they may be, Don't. Black. Out. Done.

No. No. No. No.
How much you drink, how drunk you are, does not in any way lighten the situation. It will never somehow justify a rapist's actions. You have every right to drink until you black out, stupid or not, what does it matter? You have a right to do whatever you fucking want with your own body but nobody has a right to take advantage of it.
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#19
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NO. absolutely, unequivocally no. no, no, no, no, no, no. i don't think i can say 'no' enough times. some people just freeze in this situation; in fact, most people do. in no way, shape, or form, should that ever be considered consent.


If you don't say no... how is the other person going to know that you don't consent...?! That's BS and unfair to the other person...
There IS a line. A people HAVE to stand up for themselves. If you go along with it, you forgo your right to claim assault.

That's the first thing that an attorney will ask... Did you say no? Did you tell them you didn't want to in any way?

I'm talking social situations here... not some dark alley grab...

#20
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I haven't read the situations thing yet but treating men and women the absolute same doesn't work, because men and women are not the same.

#21
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I haven't read the situations thing yet but treating men and women the absolute same doesn't work, because men and women are not the same.

Men are not the same. Women are not the same. There's differences between one own's gender and between other genders, that's not the point. In the end, every person deserves the same right as one another.
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#22
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If you don't say no... how is the other person going to know that you don't consent...?! That's BS and unfair to the other person...
There IS a line. A people HAVE to stand up for themselves. If you go along with it, you forgo your right to claim assault.

That's the first thing that an attorney will ask... Did you say no? Did you tell them you didn't want to in any way?

This.

#23
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Jesus fuck, have you heard of trigger warnings? Don't give a thread on sexual assault such a vague title.

#24
Kayfabe

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Men are not the same. Women are not the same. There's differences between one own's gender and between other genders, that's not the point. In the end, every person deserves the same right as one another.

I didn't say anything about rights, of course they're the same for everyone. I was talking about treatment.

#25
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I didn't say anything about rights, of course they're the same for everyone. I was talking about treatment.

But these two situations involve the rights of people.
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#26
johndorkian

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If you don't say no... how is the other person going to know that you don't consent...?! That's BS and unfair to the other person...
There IS a line. A people HAVE to stand up for themselves. If you go along with it, you forgo your right to claim assault.

That's the first thing that an attorney will ask... Did you say no? Did you tell them you didn't want to in any way?

I'm talking social situations here... not some dark alley grab...

after a certain point, my best friend didn't say no. it wasn't working. she, in fact, reached for a condom when she realised he wouldn't stop for anything. you could say she wanted it - her rapist has. on paper, her case looks like she fucked him, regretted it, and cried rape. actually speaking to her about it, however... you'd have to be both deaf and blind not to believe her. i don't particularly give a shit what anyone else says, anything less than a "yes" or active participation is not consent. and yes, this was a social situation. she'd been drinking. he had not.

also - "unfair to the other person"? WHAT? unfair to a rapist? no such fucking thing, my friend. that's a disgusting attitude, imo.
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#27
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Jesus fuck, have you heard of trigger warnings? Don't give a thread on sexual assault such a vague title.


I tried to give it a bland title because I couldn't think of a way of phrasing it without sounding biased/insulting.

#28
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I tried to give it a bland title because I couldn't think of a way of phrasing it without sounding biased/insulting.

Just add, "TW: Sexual Assault"
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#29
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But these two situations involve the rights of people.

Yeah. That's why I should have read the situations.

after a certain point, my best friend didn't say no. it wasn't working. she, in fact, reached for a condom when she realised he wouldn't stop for anything. you could say she wanted it - her rapist has. on paper, her case looks like she fucked him, regretted it, and cried rape. actually speaking to her about it, however... you'd have to be both deaf and blind not to believe her. i don't particularly give a shit what anyone else says, anything less than a "yes" or active participation is not consent. and yes, this was a social situation. she'd been drinking. he had not.

Her saying no wasn't working? But that is rape, I don't get the doubt in that

#30
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Her saying no wasn't working? But that is rape, I don't get the doubt in that

sorry, i worded that wrong: he attempted to go down on her, she said no and pushed him away, he left that alone. she continued with this tactic and it didn't work when it came to actual penetration. cause the guy's a cunt.



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