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Communism: Yay or Nay?

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#211 Trotsky

 
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:15 AM

So instead of Jews he moved onto the Kulaks? So much better...


Is there ever a basis for discriminating on race, religion, sex, sexuality, nationality, language? No. Should "class" be included in that list? No, this is war. The class war existed in Soviet Russia in the 1910's and it continues now everywhere in its own form. That is what separates people. Racism and similar doctrines are a means by which the ruling class preserve their power, by keeping us fighting each other so we forget that there is no "middle" class when one group has twice has much as the other but the next has thousands times more than both.

So yes, objectively, it is better. Also, the Bolsheviks reclaimed the peoples land only imprisoning or executing those who resisted, which once again, makes them no different than anyone fighting a war at any point in history. The mass murder occurred under STALIN.

#212 Vesper

 
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

Is there ever a basis for discriminating on race, religion, sex, sexuality, nationality, language? No. Should "class" be included in that list? No, this is war. The class war existed in Soviet Russia in the 1910's and it continues now everywhere in its own form. That is what separates people. Racism and similar doctrines are a means by which the ruling class preserve their power, by keeping us fighting each other so we forget that there is no "middle" class when one group has twice has much as the other but the next has thousands times more than both.

So yes, objectively, it is better. Also, the Bolsheviks reclaimed the peoples land only imprisoning or executing those who resisted, which once again, makes them no different than anyone fighting a war at any point in history. The mass murder occurred under STALIN.


No it didn't. It genuinely didn't. By the figures in the several russian history books I have currently scattered on my desks.... 'mass murder' also occurred in the period 1918-1924.
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#213 Todd

 
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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:55 PM

"I would find it intensely dissatisfactory to be on the same wage as a checkout girl/boy."

That's because you were born in a place where there are different levels of skill associated with different jobs. If you were born into a communist country and everyone just did the jobs they enjoyed and were good at, you wouldn't know any better. Also, for something like this to work, everyone has to be dedicated and motivated. Obviously you wouldn't want to live in a communist country, and the communists wouldn't want you there either if you thought you were better than everyone else (I'm not saying you think that, but everyone has to believe they are equal for communism to work) 

 

Sorry for the bump and quoting the old post, but it's better than me starting a new thread, right? 



#214 Bastard of 1969

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:10 AM

Since most of you probably neer lived in communist states, i think it's best that people who lived there tell you about it.



#215 Vesper

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:26 AM

That's because you were born in a place where there are different levels of skill associated with different jobs. If you were born into a communist country and everyone just did the jobs they enjoyed and were good at, you wouldn't know any better. Also, for something like this to work, everyone has to be dedicated and motivated. Obviously you wouldn't want to live in a communist country, and the communists wouldn't want you there either if you thought you were better than everyone else (I'm not saying you think that, but everyone has to believe they are equal for communism to work) 

 

Sorry for the bump and quoting the old post, but it's better than me starting a new thread, right? 

 

But I don't think everyone is equal. And I don't think communism provides equality either. 


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#216 Steven Seagull

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:46 AM

Americans will never understand Communism. Bush, Obama FTW right?



#217 Todd

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:26 AM

Americans will never understand Communism. Bush, Obama FTW right?

But I want to understand communism :(


 

But I don't think everyone is equal. And I don't think communism provides equality either. 

Nope, I agree. but that was Marx's idea. 



#218 fukingcounterstrike

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:35 PM

Americans will never understand Communism. Bush, Obama FTW right?

Nahhhhhh, never Obama FTW



#219 Sugaree

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:53 PM

Yay
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#220 Todd

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:13 PM

Stalin had a SWEET mustache! I'd kill millions of my citizens to grow one of those!


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#221 Certified Nimrod

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:42 PM

Stalin had a SWEET mustache! I'd kill millions of my citizens to grow one of those!

um



#222 Todd

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:43 PM

Fact: Mao Zedong never brushed his teeth



#223 Pat1308

 
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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:32 PM

I remember someone saying that no country in the world is, or was, truly 'Communist', in the sense that no country has yet really implemented Communism the way Marx or Engels envisioned it. This is also what my teacher in economics back in high school also said: there is a distinction between 'true' Marxism and the ones practiced by so-called 'Communist' countries, be it Maoism, Stalinism, Guevarism, or North Korean Juche.


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#224 Yussef

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:47 AM

I remember someone saying that no country in the world is, or was, truly 'Communist', in the sense that no country has yet really implemented Communism the way Marx or Engels envisioned it. This is also what my teacher in economics back in high school also said: there is a distinction between 'true' Marxism and the ones practiced by so-called 'Communist' countries, be it Maoism, Stalinism, Guevarism, or North Korean Juche.

I guess trying to call those countries communist is like trying to say the US is a democratic country. :P


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#225 Comrade

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:02 AM

You cannot implement communism because it is the Utopian end point of a social progression curve that includes capitalism, and will ultimately end up in some form of competition-inflected social democracy. Enforced communism fails; it is based on a lack of democracy, choice, equalism and forced redistribution. It never has or will work. Ultimately the inequality of capitalism will form the equality of a Marxist social democracy - where the number of people relying on welfare grows and grows until the welfare state is larger than the productivity of the state, and so becomes the state, with the state providing for (nearly) all. That that was Schumpeter's arghument, anyhow. It's the one I'm inclined to agree with, although like him, I question the pace at which it will happen and the reality of human nature allowing it to happen.

 

Marx and Engels based a lot of their work and assumptions on deeply floored evidence, interpretation and understanding of the technological innovation that would occur - based in no small part of completely misunderstanding the part competition has to play in capitalism as a driver of productivity and wealth for all involved. The working class of 2014 are far better off than the working class of 1814, and the working class of 2114 will be better off than today's. They will almost certainly be worse off in relation to the upper class of 2114, but their base level of comfort will still have gone up. This is where Marxists and leftists in general confuse inequality for increasing poverty, or any sort of unfairness at all. The capitalist establishment requires the lowest common denominator to be wealthy enough to buy from the rich producers. Consumption is the core of western capitalism, and is the main focus of long-term reforms in China. Capitalism requires it's population to be wealthy and happy. Yes, the rich get richer faster, but the poor get richer too - infrastructure, food quality, amenities, housing - all steadily improve as time goes on. It is not direct trickle down in raw financial terms (that does not exist) but the rich investors elevate the poor consumers to a maintain their own growth. In communism, the inevitable top strata have absolutely no inclination to do that for everyone else. Communism in theory is Utopia, but in practice, utter hell. 


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#226 Maddy.

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:46 AM

Stalin still had a killer moustache though
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#227 Pat1308

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:52 AM

You cannot implement communism because it is the Utopian end point of a social progression curve that includes capitalism, and will ultimately end up in some form of competition-inflected social democracy. Enforced communist fails; it is based on a lack of democracy, choice, equalism and forced redistribution. It never has or will work. Ultimately the inequality of capitalism will form the equality of a Marxist social democracy - where the number of people relying on welfare grows and grows until the welfare state is larger than the productivity of the state, and so becomes the state, with the state providing for (nearly) all. That that was Schumpeter's arghument, anyhow. It's the one I'm inclined to agree with, although like him, I question the pace at which it will happen and the reality of human nature allowing it to happen.

 

Marx and Engels based a lot of their work and assumptions on deeply floored evidence, interpretation and understanding of the technological innovation that would occur - based in no small part of completely misunderstanding the part competition has to play in capitalism as a driver of productivity and wealth for all involved. The working class of 2014 are far better off than the working class of 1814, and the working class of 2114 will be better off than today's. They will almost certainly be worse off in relation to the upper class of 2114, but their base level of comfort will still have gone up. This is where Marxists and leftists in general confuse inequality for increasing poverty, or any sort of unfairness at all. The capitalist establishment requires the lowest common denominator to be wealthy enough to buy from the rich producers. Consumption is the core of western capitalism, and is the main focus of long-term reforms in China. Capitalism requires it's population to be wealthy and happy. Yes, the rich get richer faster, but the poor get richer too - infrastructure, food quality, amenities, housing - all steadily improve as time goes on. It is not direct trickle down in raw financial terms (that does not exist) but the rich investors elevate the poor consumers to a maintain their own growth. In communism, the inevitable top strata have absolutely no inclination to do that for everyone else. Communism in theory is Utopia, but in practice, utter hell. 

I basically agree with what you say. That's really what IMO is the main problem with implementing Communism: it sounds nice on paper, but too idealistic to work in real life. But then again, perhaps I might say the same thing about other systems.



#228 Comrade

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:59 AM

I basically agree with what you say. That's really what IMO is the main problem with implementing Communism: it sounds nice on paper, but too idealistic to work in real life. But then again, perhaps I might say the same thing about other systems.

True - that said, few other systems profess to be morally or ideologically better than other systems. It's another flaw with communism: arrogance in assuming itself morally above everything else. Ironically, that was one of the ways Lenin, Stalin, Mao and their ilk claimed their power: justification through being morally superior to 'evil' capitalism. It's sad so see so many Marxist types in western countries (who perhaps rightfully are disenfranchised with capitalism, especially in America) make the same basic mistake. 


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#229 The Disappearing Boy

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:02 AM

Communism is a nice idea, but we are hard-wired to need authority and hierarchy, so it'll never work.


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#230 Todd

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:34 AM

Communism is a nice idea, but we are hard-wired to need authority and hierarchy, so it'll never work.

what about anarchists? Are they hardwired to need authority?

#231 Comrade

 
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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:53 AM

what about anarchists? Are they hardwired to need authority?

Ultimately, yes. Anarchist groups have leaders, and historically anarchic states - specifically Spain during its civil war and Afghanistan at most points since the 1800s - tend to become conglomerations of loose warlords, gangs and holdings until someone powerful comes along and takes over or factionalism occurs. All humans are hardwired to need authority. If not from another person, then from within. Humans require some form of discipline. It is an evolutionary response to at once developing free thinking while also being intrinsically social, herd animals. 


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#232 The Disappearing Boy

 
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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:28 AM

what about anarchists? Are they hardwired to need authority?

I think most societies function better with authority and hierarchy, even if individuals rebel against it.


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#233 Todd

 
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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:11 PM

Fuck yes





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