Jump to content

Welcome to Green Day Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Cigarettes and Valentines

Debate

  • Please log in to reply
389 replies to this topic

#31
PleasedToMeetMe

PleasedToMeetMe
  • Chump

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 348 posts
  • Joined Aug 28, 2009
  • 201 rep
  • Age:25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin
The only thing remember was about 10 years ago Billie would post those messages on GD.com and one of the demos he posted very very mildly resembled the guitar riff from Spike.

I don't think Money Money 2020 has anything to do with C&V, I think it was just something new and out of the ordinary for them to do to keep focued on making another record without getting bored. I mean who really wants to write an album, start recording it, scrap it and then immediately start on a new one? And if they did, do you really think they would have just come up with American Idiot on the spot?

I'd have to say no.

#32
Hermione

Hermione
  • Soggy Dream

  • 25,691 posts
  • Joined Jan 09, 2008
  • 8,487 rep
  • Age:28
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bury St Edmunds, England

I remember, shortly after the band started recording the elusive C&V album, that some poor quality demos made it onto the web. These turned out to be early versions of Network songs. Maybe some of C&V was eventually released on Money Money 2020?

I still have the demos saved somewhere


Nah I think they made Money Money 2020 after C&V was scrapped. The band has said C&V was similar to what they'd been doing before, that it was Warning-like. And they said it wasn't ambitious enough and not "maximum Green Day". Money Money 2020 is VERY experimental and different and new. I'd say they made it while they were being super ambitious and open minded and trying all kinds of new things while they were working on American Idiot.

I think the demos you're referring to were the songs Billie played down the phone when he left those phone messages on GD.com (eg Minnesota Girl and some Christmas covers). One was Network-like though, maybe that was the very first Network type song they worked on. But I don't think that song is connected to C&V even if it was made around the same time since it's so different to their description of the album.

#33
desertrose

desertrose
  • Best Thing In Town

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,165 posts
  • Joined Mar 11, 2011
  • 9,582 rep
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bay Area California
I don't remember if it was radio or tv, but during the "American Idiot" broadway interviews that he did, I do recall Billie Joe saying that the song "Too Much Too Soon" was a song from the lost album.

#34
Daughter.of.Rage.and.Love

Daughter.of.Rage.and.Love
  • No, this is Patrick

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,273 posts
  • Joined Oct 23, 2008
  • 3,417 rep
  • Age:20
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hollmanyreland
I think they scrapped it. I don't believe it was stolen. Maybe it was accidentally deleted or misplaced, but if that's the case, then I don't think that was the reason they decided not to go through with it.

I've always theorized that What About Today, Things I Heard Today, and Minnesota Girl were from C&V. My only grounds for it are that they were put out around the same time as they were working on the album, and I think What About Today sounds like it would go with C&V on an album well, though.

Minnesota Girl is like twenty years old though. I don't remember where I heard or read it, but apparently Billie wrote it for Adie when they were dating, so that'd be the early '90s.

I don't remember if it was radio or tv, but during the "American Idiot" broadway interviews that he did, I do recall Billie Joe saying that the song "Too Much Too Soon" was a song from the lost album.

That was on a radio interview.
http://www.greendaya...y.com/news/338/ around 2:50

#35
MrsBillieJoe95

MrsBillieJoe95
  • Pedestrian

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,262 posts
  • Joined Jun 12, 2010
  • 302 rep
  • Age:18
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:'Merika
at least they have back-ups of the songs! I didn't think they were stupid enough to not make copies, but I had never seen that video :P I wish they would revisit it or at least tease us some with some "leaks" ;) gah!

That was on a radio interview.
http://www.greendaya...y.com/news/338/ around 2:50


one does not simply skip parts of a Green Day interview! You must listen to it all :D xD

#36
Hermione

Hermione
  • Soggy Dream

  • 25,691 posts
  • Joined Jan 09, 2008
  • 8,487 rep
  • Age:28
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bury St Edmunds, England
Ooh I'd forgotten about Too Much Too Soon being on it. I was surprised when I first heard that but it makes sense really, it's got that same "in between Warning and American Idiot" sound as Maria and Ha Ha You're Dead, and Cigarettes And Valentines. I'd say that's more evidence that Cigarettes And Valentines was really on that album, the sound of it fits.


Minnesota Girl is like twenty years old though. I don't remember where I heard or read it, but apparently Billie wrote it for Adie when they were dating, so that'd be the early '90s.

Could you be thinking of When It's Time? He wrote that for her when he was 19. But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Minnesota Girl is that old too.

#37
Daughter.of.Rage.and.Love

Daughter.of.Rage.and.Love
  • No, this is Patrick

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,273 posts
  • Joined Oct 23, 2008
  • 3,417 rep
  • Age:20
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hollmanyreland

Could you be thinking of When It's Time? He wrote that for her when he was 19. But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Minnesota Girl is that old too.

I heard Minnesota Girl was that old too... I wish I remembered where I heard it though =/

#38
Brigister

Brigister
  • I'm a mess and you're a work of art

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,541 posts
  • Joined Aug 30, 2011
  • 1,192 rep
  • Age:18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Venice, Italy
I used to believe that it was stolen, but personally after I knew that they denied to be The Network, I don't think that what they publicly state is always trustworthy :lol:

#39
Hermione

Hermione
  • Soggy Dream

  • 25,691 posts
  • Joined Jan 09, 2008
  • 8,487 rep
  • Age:28
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bury St Edmunds, England

I heard Minnesota Girl was that old too... I wish I remembered where I heard it though http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...

Ahh I see. Now I'm thinking I can remember an interview/article from the early 2000s where the interviewer described being on a tour bus getting drunk with Billie and he was showing him pictures of his family and kneeing down singing a love song he'd recently written for Adrienne. I think I just assumed it was Minnesota Girl rather than it actually saying it in the article though so it probably wasn't about that. I wish I could remember where both these things came from :lol:

#40
Redundant Boy

Redundant Boy
  • Brat

  • PipPipPip
  • 108 posts
  • Joined Jul 15, 2010
  • 71 rep
  • Age:19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sao Paulo/Brazil
I was around the Green Day's website dated December 2003 and I found a link for this article on MTV: http://www.mtv.com/n...-album-04.jhtml Is it about American Idiot or Cigarettes and Valentines? Billie Joe seemed pretty excited and he said they were working on this for 3 years (that's why I thought it was C&V).

Idk, just wanted to share. :lol:

#41
ˇFelipe!

ˇFelipe!
  • Pedestrian

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 832 posts
  • Joined Feb 26, 2010
  • 306 rep
  • Age:23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brazil
I think the album wasn't good, if not they would have recorded again

#42
PleasedToMeetMe

PleasedToMeetMe
  • Chump

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 348 posts
  • Joined Aug 28, 2009
  • 201 rep
  • Age:25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin
I'm sure the album was good, it just wasn't as epic and spine tingling as American Idiot . . Which is why I'm sure it was shelved. In all honesty sometimes I think they had most of the album written but none of it recorded and they just made up the stolen master tapes story instead of being like 'yea, we were lazy and our band was falling apart so we tightened it up and set out to make the best album we've ever made instead of another boring album like Warning'.

I personally don't think Warning was a boring album but a lot of people do and back then it was kind of seen as 'Green Day gone soft'. People classified them as old and fat and washed up. Funny how thing's have changed, huh?

#43
Hermione

Hermione
  • Soggy Dream

  • 25,691 posts
  • Joined Jan 09, 2008
  • 8,487 rep
  • Age:28
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bury St Edmunds, England

I was around the Green Day's website dated December 2003 and I found a link for this article on MTV: http://www.mtv.com/n...-album-04.jhtml Is it about American Idiot or Cigarettes and Valentines? Billie Joe seemed pretty excited and he said they were working on this for 3 years (that's why I thought it was C&V).

Idk, just wanted to share. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...

I think by the end of 2003 they were well into working on American Idiot so he must've been talking about American Idiot. I think Billie was including trying out and scrapping C&V in the "it's taken me about three and a half years" part. Like, it's taken 3 1/2 years of trying stuff out for me to finally now make something that blows me away (American Idiot).

#44
Zack.

Zack.
  • Resident Digod

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,421 posts
  • Joined Apr 17, 2010
  • 1,478 rep
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Information Superhighway

I think they scrapped it. I don't believe it was stolen. Maybe it was accidentally deleted or misplaced, but if that's the case, then I don't think that was the reason they decided not to go through with it.


Minnesota Girl is like twenty years old though. I don't remember where I heard or read it, but apparently Billie wrote it for Adie when they were dating, so that'd be the early '90s.


That was on a radio interview.
http://www.greendaya...y.com/news/338/ around 2:50


Now that you mention it, I think I remember hearing that too.

#45
Elena

Elena
  • -Very Custom Title-

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,960 posts
  • Joined Aug 12, 2011
  • 1,041 rep
  • Age:18
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Germany
I think it existed (since we know the cong Cigarettes and Valentines now and some new songs thast could come from that album as well) and I actually don't think that they would say it was stolen if they just didn't like it, i think they would tell us the truth, i mean, why shouldn't they tell us? they know that we'd forgive them if they tell us that the album takes a bit longer cos it wasn't perfect, we'd all know that they just wanna make it better and i'm sure many of us would have been happy then
....ok, maybe it wasn't stolen - i can't judge it cos i wasn't there - but i'm sure there really happened something with the album...yeah maybe they misplaced it...maybe they thought it would be embarrassing and decided to not tell us....that could also be a reason why they now release some songs: they maybe have found the recordings ;)

Advertising

#46
Rob716

Rob716
  • Chump

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts
  • Joined Jun 15, 2011
  • 202 rep
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:My loft

do you really think they would have just come up with American Idiot on the spot?

I'd have to say no.


Well, if Cigarettes and Valentines was stolen some time in 2003 (anyone know when exactly) then they'd have at least 9 months to come up with American Idiot which was released 21st September 2004 (good old Wikipedia!) which thinking how spontaneous the writing of American Idiot sounds from interviews could well be true. They also made Insomniac in a very short space of time off the back of the Dookie tour for release in 1995.

#47
PleasedToMeetMe

PleasedToMeetMe
  • Chump

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 348 posts
  • Joined Aug 28, 2009
  • 201 rep
  • Age:25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin
Insomniac, totally. American Idiot was not written in a couple weeks and then recorded in a proper studio. There seems to have been a lot of experimentation and quite a few months of writing. Didn't Billie go to NYC alone to get inspired and get in touch with his inner demons? I'm guessing that happened sometime between the abandonment of C&V and the beginning of American Idiot.

I'm guessing that C&V was scheduled to be released around the time that Money Money 2020 was and that The Network was a byproduct of the band going into extreme wall breaking mode. Something fun to do that takes the stress of making a great album away.

#48
MrsBillieJoe95

MrsBillieJoe95
  • Pedestrian

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,262 posts
  • Joined Jun 12, 2010
  • 302 rep
  • Age:18
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:'Merika

I think the album wasn't good, if not they would have recorded again


I think it would have been a great album, but I think they thought it wouldn't get much attention as it probably should have. I bet it would get plenty of attention now if they decided to fully revisit the album though :) most def. would on GDA :lol: but come on, what Green Day album doesn't get the attention it deserves on here? haha

#49
Robbie Random

Robbie Random
  • Little One

  • PipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined Sep 29, 2008
  • 20 rep
  • Age:31
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edenbridge, Kent, UK
Ok maybe I didn't word my post very well. I'm not saying C&V is Money Money 2020, i'm just saying that possibly some of the songs were reworked for the album?

#50
Hermione

Hermione
  • Soggy Dream

  • 25,691 posts
  • Joined Jan 09, 2008
  • 8,487 rep
  • Age:28
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bury St Edmunds, England

Ok maybe I didn't word my post very well. I'm not saying C&V is Money Money 2020, i'm just saying that possibly some of the songs were reworked for the album?

I suppose that's possible, just like they could rework any songs they've written. They'd have to have been reworked a LOT in this case though, since C&V is meant to have been Warning-like and Money Money 2020 is 80's style punky new wave with space age lyrics about robots and stuff :lol:. I guess it's possible that they could've used any song they'd written in the past but not released as the starting point for a song on there but it all sounds very new and fresh to me, more like something they came up with while they were being super creative and trying new things out while making American Idiot.

#51
Sarcasm

Sarcasm
  • Arse Doctor. PhD/Bloodqueef McOral (and Hitler)

  • 14,474 posts
  • Joined Mar 18, 2009
  • 8,831 rep
  • Age:22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
If MoneyMoney 2020 really is the mangled remains of C&V, they had good reason to put masks on. I mean it's a good album, but not as a comback for someone as great as Green Day.

#52
PleasedToMeetMe

PleasedToMeetMe
  • Chump

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 348 posts
  • Joined Aug 28, 2009
  • 201 rep
  • Age:25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wisconsin
I just don't see it. The songs seem to be written in the style that they are performed. Maybe 'Roshambo' if anything, because the lyrics and melody could just as easily be a Green Day song instead. However, songs like 'Hungry Hungry' and 'X Ray Hamburger' make me strongly disagree with that logic.

I think it was just the band going into unknown territory and trying something totally different, reinventing themselves as a different band with no pressure. Just purely experimental and fun.

#53
fiercecircus

fiercecircus
  • Insomniac

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Joined Aug 21, 2011
  • 525 rep
  • Age:33
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:New England

I personally don't think Warning was a boring album but a lot of people do and back then it was kind of seen as 'Green Day gone soft'. People classified them as old and fat and washed up. Funny how thing's have changed, huh?


They weren't washed up... but... billie got kinda chubby :). HEY, I DID TOO, ALRIGHT?

If MoneyMoney 2020 really is the mangled remains of C&V, they had good reason to put masks on.


Hahaha! Oh man. That's bad. (but i agree. I don't like the Network but it is stupid and goofy and funny so whatever.)

My theory on stolen master tapes is... DUDE, they were still recording on analog in 2003?

i mean there's something to be said for analog vs digital but still. Even if Billie "pissed on a hard drive"... what recording studio would NOT BACK UP shit for a major fucking band like Green Day? Even if there was a power surge, and the computer got "fried", or the HD crashed, or whatever- nothing that is saved is truly ever gone off a hard drive. There are data-recovery specialists that can get that stuff- it may not be something you and i do to get lost vacation pictures back, but you can be damn well sure that if Green Day "lost" some important files (like a new album) they would have the money to put into recovering it.

And yeah, they probably decided that whatever they were working on wasn't that great, and just started anew with AI.

Also, i think they're fucking stashing that shit to posthumously release shit like Tupac and the Beatles. Those wily little fuckers...

#54
Sarcasm

Sarcasm
  • Arse Doctor. PhD/Bloodqueef McOral (and Hitler)

  • 14,474 posts
  • Joined Mar 18, 2009
  • 8,831 rep
  • Age:22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway

My theory on stolen master tapes is... DUDE, they were still recording on analog in 2003?

i mean there's something to be said for analog vs digital but still. Even if Billie "pissed on a hard drive"... what recording studio would NOT BACK UP shit for a major fucking band like Green Day? Even if there was a power surge, and the computer got "fried", or the HD crashed, or whatever- nothing that is saved is truly ever gone off a hard drive. There are data-recovery specialists that can get that stuff- it may not be something you and i do to get lost vacation pictures back, but you can be damn well sure that if Green Day "lost" some important files (like a new album) they would have the money to put into recovering it.

Also, i think they're fucking stashing that shit to posthumously release shit like Tupac and the Beatles. Those wily little fuckers...


The master tapes were gone, they had backup, but "it just wasn't the same", or something x)

#55
MrsBillieJoe95

MrsBillieJoe95
  • Pedestrian

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,262 posts
  • Joined Jun 12, 2010
  • 302 rep
  • Age:18
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:'Merika

They weren't washed up... but... billie got kinda chubby http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/.... HEY, I DID TOO, ALRIGHT?



Hahaha! Oh man. That's bad. (but i agree. I don't like the Network but it is stupid and goofy and funny so whatever.)

My theory on stolen master tapes is... DUDE, they were still recording on analog in 2003?

i mean there's something to be said for analog vs digital but still. Even if Billie "pissed on a hard drive"... what recording studio would NOT BACK UP shit for a major fucking band like Green Day? Even if there was a power surge, and the computer got "fried", or the HD crashed, or whatever- nothing that is saved is truly ever gone off a hard drive. There are data-recovery specialists that can get that stuff- it may not be something you and i do to get lost vacation pictures back, but you can be damn well sure that if Green Day "lost" some important files (like a new album) they would have the money to put into recovering it.

And yeah, they probably decided that whatever they were working on wasn't that great, and just started anew with AI.

Also, i think they're fucking stashing that shit to posthumously release shit like Tupac and the Beatles. Those wily little fuckers...


they had backups :) someone posted a video on the first page and mike said something like "We have the backups on CD's but it just wasn't the same." I wondered if they had backups as well and when I saw the video I was relieved that there's at least some sort of version of the songs still :D

#56
crackjawfan

crackjawfan
  • Welcome to Paradise

  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Joined Jan 20, 2012
  • 0 rep
i think the tapes did get stolen only cus hanging around a bunch of local musican's i now know that crap like that can happen. but after the mass "dissapointment" warning they were probubly a little scared and took it as a sign to restart and i say dissapointment with quotes cus i personaly liked the album alot

#57
classof12

classof12
  • Supermodel Robot

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 540 posts
  • Joined Aug 08, 2011
  • 117 rep
  • Age:19
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Right behind you!
I've never beilieved someone stole it, I think tyhey didn't like teh result and decided "to lose" it. Anyway, that would be a little nonsense if we think about the AAF cd in which they include "Cigarettes and Valentines", maybe they liked just that song (and that's because the cd was going to have that name) but not the other songs...only Billie, Mike and Tré know the real truth.

#58
Sixtrix

Sixtrix
  • Pedestrian

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,042 posts
  • Joined Mar 29, 2008
  • 708 rep
  • Age:30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Netherlands

The master tapes were gone, they had backup, but "it just wasn't the same", or something x)


When the master tapes are gone, or the main hard drive that contains the recorded material, there's this disappointment that can hit you because you put all this time recording it, and now there's the risk of all that hitting the audience before they could sufficiently finish it.

I think that thought process made them question the material and wonder of that is the best they can do, or maybe it's a sign to set the bar even higher.

A lot has been going on between Warning and American Idiot, like the personal issues between Billie, Mike and Tre that eventually got resolved.
We will probably never know for sure what exactly happened to C&V, but the fact that we are having an interesting discussion about it here and for the past 8 years makes it clear that it is actually more fun not to know than to know. But that is my personal opinion :)

#59
GTI

GTI
  • Pedestrian

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined Jun 16, 2008
  • 22 rep
  • Age:24
  • Location:C-view, Fl
I want them to just sit down one day and write a book personally about their whole career. I'm not talking some 100 page "fact" book either. I would love in depth stuff about them, especially what happened with Cigarettes and Valentines.

Anyways, I have a few theories:

-If it was stolen, guaranteed we would have had somebody leak it. Anyone that would be willing to do that doesn't seem like a fan of the band, so it'd make sense for them to leak it.

-On the other hand, stolen could have meant it was damaged or destroyed on accident. Sort of like it was "stolen" from them. You get what I mean. In this case, they may have went back to listen to it and they really didn't feel the record. They liked it and were proud of it of course, but it just wasn't what they knew they were capable of.

-Now for a crazy idea. No reason to think this at all, it just popped into my head. Say someone did take them, but someone they knew. Could have been one of them, a friend.. but they kept quiet about it. In their mind, whoever took it, may have wanted to do them a favor. Kind of like "Hey. This isn't the best you can do." Since this happened, they took a step back and realized it wasn't what they wanted to do and came out with the epic album they wanted to make. Perhaps the person who took them later admitted it, but in the end they saw it as a blessing in disguise.

#60
crackjawfan

crackjawfan
  • Welcome to Paradise

  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Joined Jan 20, 2012
  • 0 rep
hear is a slight bit of an idea that isn't really as well thought of anymore but they use to keep master tapes on a real bassed device rather then the current technologies like disc and data. so in all honesty to the someone had to have leaked it by now methid is that maybe the person who stole it stole a old real. i mean this is HIGHLY unlikly but it is a possibility. being i know current studios still use them on accation to give a cd a more "old timey" fell (ps please mind my spelling i am REALLY bad at spelling)



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Debate

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users