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Cigarettes and Valentines

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#1
MrsBillieJoe95

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I searched for a thread about this and couldn't find anything, but if there happens to be one, please merge me or something :P

In a recent article posted on GDA, Jimmy told us that Gibson included Cigarettes and Valentines in the "top 10 greatest albums to be shelved or abandoned" (http://www.greendaya....com/news/2930/). There's quite a lot of speculation about the album in the comments questioning it's existance and what truly happened to it.

Do you think that the album ever truly existed? If so, what do you think happened to it?
-------------------

I believe that the album existed, but because they didn't feel it was "Maximum Green Day", they decided to have it either destroied or seemingly removed from existence.

This is just ransom scenerio, but what if this happened:
Billie, Mike, Tre, Rob, and whoever else are in the studio working on the album. The boys finish off a few song demos and are beginning to review the tracks they have recorded. They begin to listen, when suddenly Billie says "We can improve this track."
Rob says "Okay, it's your album. What do you think needs to be improved on this?"
Billie begins to explain what he think needs to change about it. Mike and Tre put in their 2 cents about what can be done. They begin to process the albums and make them sound better. They listen to their final tracks, but aren't satisfied. They all know they can do better. Rob asks them "Well, if you're not satisfied, then what do you want to do?" to which they respond "We want to do better. Scrap the whole project and start fresh". The project is scrapped and from that, American Idiot was born!
--------------------------

We all know that according to them, the masters were stolen and they agreed after that that they can do better anyway. I think that yes, something happened to the masters, but they weren't "stolen". I question if there were copies made from the masters considering they only tell us about masters. I assume that if there were any, they have at least one stored away somewhere with the master (if it wasn't destroied/taken) and are going to come back to it at a later date!

How awesome would it be if Cigarettes and Valentines was the new album to be released which is why they haven't told us anything about it? Assuming the album existed (I'm sure that there are some of you out there that don't believe the album existed. I know there were in the post from Jimmy) and hypothetically if the next album is C&V, the tracks could have been from the original C&V and just labeled as "new" due to us never have heard them before.
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#2
Catbug

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This has been discussed many times before so it would probably be better if you brought this discussion up in one of the following threads
http://www.greendayc...s-wasnt-stolen/
http://www.greendayc...10-lost-albums/

#3
Matt.

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This has been discussed many times before so it would probably be better if you brought this discussion up in one of the following threads
http://www.greendayc...s-wasnt-stolen/
http://www.greendayc...10-lost-albums/

Liam..... the last post made in the first thread you posted was made over a year ago. I think we can make a new one.
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#4
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Liam..... the last post made in the first thread you posted was made over a year ago. I think we can make a new one.

Just a suggestion and I have seen bigger bumps for less

#5
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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After looking through the other two threads, the first is well and truly dead, and a new one to succeed it won't hurt anything. The second one's more for discussing its place on the Gibson list, not so much on a "what would life be like with C&V?" conversation. That said, I am going to move this over to GD Chat, as it's all about, y'know, Green Day.
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#6
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I think there is some weight to the theory that the new album could contain some C&V songs. I've always thought that Stay the Night had a certain C&V feel. Not to mention that Stray Heart reminds me of some of the songs off of Warning.

I don't know, really. I do feel like C&V existed, but it wasn't the direction the band wanted to go so they scrapped it. We have gotten some of the songs from it though, like C&V itself and I think Too Much Too Soon and Olivia were said to be from it.
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#7
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Question: Why does no one believe the guys when they said it was stolen?
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#8
gloria123

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i feel that it wasn't stolen (like 2 guys in ski-masks broke in at night and stole it) it may have been that it got erased or misplaced.
i also think that the C&V that we hear now may not be the original one, just because if it was misplaced "accidentally" they must have thought it wasn't to good then.
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#9
MrsBillieJoe95

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After looking through the other two threads, the first is well and truly dead, and a new one to succeed it won't hurt anything. The second one's more for discussing its place on the Gibson list, not so much on a "what would life be like with C&V?" conversation. That said, I am going to move this over to GD Chat, as it's all about, y'know, Green Day.


Ok fair enough :) thanks!

Question: Why does no one believe the guys when they said it was stolen?


I personally don't believe it was stolen because it sounds very unlikely to me. Not that something goes missing, but that a master tape could be stolen and it was (as far as I'm aware of at least) never looked into (or at least not very much). Even if it was never your best, I would be extremely pissed about it. That, and why wouldn't they have copies of the album made in case something went wrong?

i feel that it wasn't stolen (like 2 guys in ski-masks broke in at night and stole it) it may have been that it got erased or misplaced.
i also think that the C&V that we hear now may not be the original one, just because if it was misplaced "accidentally" they must have thought it wasn't to good then.


that's quite possible as well. They're such teases xD I wish they would tell us what really happened (assuming that they aren't already lol). I wish they would give us more information about it other than "we came in the next day and it was gone. someone stole it but it's okay because it wasn't the best anyway!"

#10
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if it was stolen, we probably would have found something online, maybe a rip of the recorings because no one is going to STEAL a popular bands material without getting it out there as well.... I think it got misplaced or accidentally erased. I dont think Green Day would say "this isnt good enough so were going to throw it all away and restart." Billie Joe would have worked with each song to make them better, not restart. So it probably got misplaced or accidentally erased. And the band simply didnt have enough energy to re-record something that they put so much into.
Who knows, maybe the next album will be Cigarettes and Valentines ;)

#11
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If the masters were really stollen then they would have been leaked surely. I'm pretty sure the band were on a talk show a year or two ago (maybe Jimmy Fallon) and the story they said then was that the masters were probably accidentally deleted by a technician at the studio. I find this to be a more believable story.

#12
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I think the C&V we know of today is the original song, just souped up to fit the 'arena' style of the show like they do with many songs. It was probably a little less fast paced when it was originally recorded but who knows for sure . .

Actually, wasn't there a rumor that they played the song during sound check at one of the shows on the American Idiot tour, can anyone confirm if this is true? And if so, is it indeed the same song?

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#13
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I still don't understand why Green Day thought there work from C&V wasn't good enough. I've heard songs that have been said to be from, or thought by GDC, from C&V and personally I love said songs. One example, Cigarette's and Valentines itself, is a gorgeous song.
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#14
MrsBillieJoe95

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if it was stolen, we probably would have found something online, maybe a rip of the recorings because no one is going to STEAL a popular bands material without getting it out there as well.... I think it got misplaced or accidentally erased. I dont think Green Day would say "this isnt good enough so were going to throw it all away and restart." Billie Joe would have worked with each song to make them better, not restart. So it probably got misplaced or accidentally erased. And the band simply didnt have enough energy to re-record something that they put so much into.
Who knows, maybe the next album will be Cigarettes and Valentines http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...


A lot of people seem to believe this theory :) I think it's a very plausible thing, but don't believe it happened still. The only thing I can really think of is if maybe something went wrong with the system and it accidentally got erased like that. Maybe I'm just overanalyzing the whole thing, but I also wonder if they had something to back up the system, and if they did, why didn't they do that? It works 7/9 times.

If the masters were really stollen then they would have been leaked surely. I'm pretty sure the band were on a talk show a year or two ago (maybe Jimmy Fallon) and the story they said then was that the masters were probably accidentally deleted by a technician at the studio. I find this to be a more believable story.


I agree about them being leaked. I doubt someone would have just flat out kept them. If you had something that nobody else had then you would surely be leaking them out so you could be that guy who has their hands on a major band's music and let it out.

I think the C&V we know of today is the original song, just souped up to fit the 'arena' style of the show like they do with many songs. It was probably a little less fast paced when it was originally recorded but who knows for sure . .

Actually, wasn't there a rumor that they played the song during sound check at one of the shows on the American Idiot tour, can anyone confirm if this is true? And if so, is it indeed the same song?


Never thought of that :lol: I like that they're revisiting the music though :D

I'll look into that :) I'm looking for it now!

[edit] I found an '09 thread from the San Jose concert that they played C&V :D http://www.greendayc...es-san-jose-ca/

#15
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I think if it had been stolen it would've been leaked. Either it was misplaced or they scrapped it. Even so, I doubt the next album will be C&V because if it was it probably would have been released already. They wouldn't have had to spend time writing; just fine-tuning, recording, and mixing.

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#16
MrsBillieJoe95

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I think if it had been stolen it would've been leaked. Either it was misplaced or they scrapped it. Even so, I doubt the next album will be C&V because if it was it probably would have been released already. They wouldn't have had to spend time writing; just fine-tuning, recording, and mixing.


I don't think it's going to be the same as the original one, but if it happens to be Cigarettes and Valentines, I bet they took out the songs that they felt didn't have much potential and replaced with songs that were better in their eyes. Plus, the songs weren't necessarily specifically written for the new album :P Billie said he writes songs all the time when the moment is right :)

They were on tour up through like November 2010 and pretty much the rest of the time was spent doing the American Idiot musical which just finished April 2011. It's not quite been a year since the last perfomance, they've had to spend time with family, and they were kinda busy for about a month or two with shows and other misc. things, so i would say that more time was spent just doing some finalizing/(re)recording than writting :lol: I would say that they're just screwing with it and making us wait lol.

#17
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Goddammit i cant multi quote on my phone... But yeah. They were too non chalant about.it.being "stolen" and also if it were stolen it would have leaked like mad.

Dammit, i wish it HAD leaked!
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#18
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I don't think any of the new songs will be C&V ones. I don't think I even believe the C&V we know is the original, or that Olivia is from that album. GD have plenty of new ideas all the time and I can't really see them revisiting something they thought "wasn't good enough".

As for the master tapes... who knows? Maybe that damn Network band stole them.
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#19
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My opinion is not that they felt they weren't doing their best, but I think there was a point that they thought: "come on, it's just the same thing we've been doing for the last 5 years, shouldn't we try something new?". I mean, Warning is great, but it wasn't as sucessfull as Green Day deserves. I remember I had read somewhere that by that time things weren't working well inside the band and Billie were thinking in going in a solo career. It fits! There's also the Network thing: I've always thought they were just C&V's songs, just mixed with other things to not sound like Green Day. It's from the same time, they couldn't just work on both Network and C&V songs at the same time!

Also I think the C&V song they played on 21st Century Breakdown tour isn't the same it was back in 2003. You can notice in Jason White's solo: it's something they've done a lot on 21st Century Breakdown songs. It's new stuff. I think it's probably going to be released on the upcoming record (on the album or as a b-side), but I don't think the next album is going to be C&V as someone said here. If you hear the new songs (except for Nuclear Family and Carpe Diem, I think), it sounds a lot like FHT, which this spirit has come to them in 2007/2008.

What happens about people not believing it is just that the band didn't give much details about it. I mean, all we officially know is that the master tapes were simply gone. Don't know any track names but C&V, they didn't even play any song live until the last leg of the last american tour. Come on, it's Green Day, they're a huge band. It's really hard to believe that a whole album is suddenly gone.
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#20
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they couldn't just work on both Network and C&V songs at the same time!


And why the fuck not?



I've always theorized that What About Today, Things I Heard Today, and Minnesota Girl were from C&V. My only grounds for it are that they were put out around the same time as they were working on the album, and I think What About Today sounds like it would go with C&V on an album well, though.

#21
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And why the fuck not?


My bad, I just realized they've done it with FHT. haha

#22
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Also I think the C&V song they played on 21st Century Breakdown tour isn't the same it was back in 2003. You can notice in Jason White's solo: it's something they've done a lot on 21st Century Breakdown songs. It's new stuff.


I think it sounds more like the solos from 39/Smooth actually!

Anyway, 'Cigarettes and Valentines' would be an awesome opening song for an album. The direct, opening riff powers in, followed by the pause while Billie blasts out the opening lyrics, and the whole explosion of noise would get anyone right into the album. The lyrics work well too, 'Oh come away, with me tonight, with Cigarettes and Valentines', as in come along with Green Day on this album of the next 45 mins or so, and hope it doesn't 'pass me by'. 'Paralyse this moment til it dies' because it's going to be great! The ending also entices you for more...

As for the other songs on the album on the thread linked above from 2009 it said in an interview Billie named 'Cigarettes and Valentines,' 'Drop Out' and 'Walk Away as three of the songs. I bet some of the Foxboro Hot Tubs stuff is off there too, maybe 'Broadway', 'Alligator' and perhaps 'Stop, Drop and Roll'. I bet a lot of the lyrics and riffs from 'Cigarettes and Valentines' songs have been reused on later material, such as the 'red alert' lyrics in both 'Cigarettes and Valentines' and 'American Eulogy' so I doubt the album will ever see the light of day, whether Green Day have it or not.
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Question: Why does no one believe the guys when they said it was stolen?

Because they're always so sketchy when they talk about it :lol:. Totally nudge nudge wink wink with Tre making faces and stuff.

I think whether it was stolen/misplaced or not is somewhat irrelevant. Whatever happened to the master tapes they would've had other recordings of at least some if not all of it and would've remembered it. Whatever happened they could've recreated it if they'd wanted to. I think that's why they're silly when they talk about it being stolen - they have a laugh with it and don't take it too seriously because whether it was stolen or not makes little difference to how easy it would've been to carry on with the album if they'd really wanted to.

They've explained it themselves really, they were working on the album but then they realized it wasn't "maximum Green Day" and that they could push themselves further and do better. So they scrapped it. It was all/part of it being stolen/misplaced (whichever it was) that made them stop and rethink what they were doing and come to that conclusion. They've been honest in saying they realized they could do better so they started over so I don't think there's any huge mystery about it.

#24
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I'm guessing it wasn't stolen, but something embarresing happened. Like that time Billie pissed in his suitcase.

"so, I' drunk, and I pissed on this hard drive.."
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#25
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I do think that "stolen" was the wrong word to use, because if they were stolen, that person more than likely would have leeked them or sold them to a big Green Day fan, and I'm sure we would have heard about it by now had that happened.

So, I do think that it existed, but just that they scrapped it and sarted again, unless the person who stole them was Billie, which has been rumoured. I don't know, we need more information to make a proper decision on it. I think they left out anything that would lead to the full story so that we could never find them. :ermm:
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I don't believe in story about stolen album, it's sounds unlikely to me. But ok, maybe it's true. Maybe someone stolen tapes, because songs were so weak :lol:

#27
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Dammit, i wish it HAD leaked!


don't we all? :happy:

My opinion is not that they felt they weren't doing their best, but I think there was a point that they thought: "come on, it's just the same thing we've been doing for the last 5 years, shouldn't we try something new?". I mean, Warning is great, but it wasn't as sucessfull as Green Day deserves. I remember I had read somewhere that by that time things weren't working well inside the band and Billie were thinking in going in a solo career. It fits! There's also the Network thing: I've always thought they were just C&V's songs, just mixed with other things to not sound like Green Day. It's from the same time, they couldn't just work on both Network and C&V songs at the same time!

Also I think the C&V song they played on 21st Century Breakdown tour isn't the same it was back in 2003. You can notice in Jason White's solo: it's something they've done a lot on 21st Century Breakdown songs. It's new stuff. I think it's probably going to be released on the upcoming record (on the album or as a b-side), but I don't think the next album is going to be C&V as someone said here. If you hear the new songs (except for Nuclear Family and Carpe Diem, I think), it sounds a lot like FHT, which this spirit has come to them in 2007/2008.

What happens about people not believing it is just that the band didn't give much details about it. I mean, all we officially know is that the master tapes were simply gone. Don't know any track names but C&V, they didn't even play any song live until the last leg of the last american tour. Come on, it's Green Day, they're a huge band. It's really hard to believe that a whole album is suddenly gone.


I haven't heard much Network and still don't know much about em (didn't really like the couple songs I had heard. Heard TFM on Tony Hawk's American Wasteland though and it's okay :P Billie's an unlockable character on there xD :lol:), but idt that Money Money 2020 was every C&V. I think that came around more from them messing around in the studio and them deciding to be stupid :lol:

Nobody really doubts that it's not the same as the original. I bet they revisited the song since they thought it could have some potential :)

I know you already adressed the Network comment, but bitch please, they're Green Day :lol: :wub:

I think it sounds more like the solos from 39/Smooth actually!

Anyway, 'Cigarettes and Valentines' would be an awesome opening song for an album. The direct, opening riff powers in, followed by the pause while Billie blasts out the opening lyrics, and the whole explosion of noise would get anyone right into the album. The lyrics work well too, 'Oh come away, with me tonight, with Cigarettes and Valentines', as in come along with Green Day on this album of the next 45 mins or so, and hope it doesn't 'pass me by'. 'Paralyse this moment til it dies' because it's going to be great! The ending also entices you for more...

As for the other songs on the album on the thread linked above from 2009 it said in an interview Billie named 'Cigarettes and Valentines,' 'Drop Out' and 'Walk Away as three of the songs. I bet some of the Foxboro Hot Tubs stuff is off there too, maybe 'Broadway', 'Alligator' and perhaps 'Stop, Drop and Roll'. I bet a lot of the lyrics and riffs from 'Cigarettes and Valentines' songs have been reused on later material, such as the 'red alert' lyrics in both 'Cigarettes and Valentines' and 'American Eulogy' so I doubt the album will ever see the light of day, whether Green Day have it or not.


I can hear it now *looks off to the upper left* :lol: A Green Day album never truly dies, but it's still going to be great to act like it might hehe.

You have a very good point! I never thought about that :D

Because they're always so sketchy when they talk about it . http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/... Totally nudge nudge wink wink with Tre making faces and stuff.

I think whether it was stolen/misplaced or not is somewhat irrelevant. Whatever happened to the master tapes they would've had other recordings of at least some if not all of it and would've remembered it. Whatever happened they could've recreated it if they'd wanted to. I think that's why they're silly when they talk about it being stolen - they have a laugh with it and don't take it too seriously because whether it was stolen or not makes little difference to how easy it would've been to carry on with the album if they'd really wanted to.

They've explained it themselves really, they were working on the album but then they realized it wasn't "maximum Green Day" and that they could push themselves further and do better. So they scrapped it. It was all/part of it being stolen/misplaced (whichever it was) that made them stop and rethink what they were doing and come to that conclusion. They've been honest in saying they realized they could do better so they started over so I don't think there's any huge mystery about it.


I agree 99% :) the only thing I don't fully agree on is the mystery part. I think that it's not too big of a mystery surrounding how they felt and for starting over, but it's still kinda mysterious about how it truly *more or less* disappeared from existence. We've pretty much come to the conclusion that they weren't happy with the album and it was part of the reason for starting over. We just can't figure out the middle part!

So, I do think that it existed, but just that they scrapped it and started again, unless the person who stole them was Billie, which has been rumoured. I don't know, we need more information to make a proper decision on it. I think they left out anything that would lead to the full story so that we could never find them. http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...


I kinda wonder if Billie didn't do something to it, but I don't believe he did. I think he would have said something to everyone else first and then done something. Why must they be so light on details?!

#28
Laly

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Sometimes I think that it wasn't actually stolen. They said that they decided to start over and not record those songs again. But I always wondered: "what, an entire record just dissapeared and you're not going to do anything about it?" Sometimes sounds too crazy, and sometimes is like 'thank god, because of that bad incident they create American Idiot'.
I wouldn't care so much. They obviously didn't and moved on.
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desertrose

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Here is video of them talking about the stolen masters and how they still have them on CD , but still not the same.


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#30
Robbie Random

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I remember, shortly after the band started recording the elusive C&V album, that some poor quality demos made it onto the web. These turned out to be early versions of Network songs. Maybe some of C&V was eventually released on Money Money 2020?

I still have the demos saved somewhere



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