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Adoption of Children by Same Sex Couples

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#61
HeißblütigerPinguin

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Don't you think there should be an initial structure and then allow the kid freedom if it rejects it?

The initial structure would be his/her parents being a good rope model, meaning being a good person, forgiving, moral etc.
But not that not that women have these treats and men the other.

#62
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The initial structure would be his/her parents being a good rope model, meaning being a good person, forgiving, moral etc.
But not that not that women have these treats and men the other.


That's not what I meant. But it is obviously the case that most parents follow gender rules when they have children... such as names?

#63
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So does this basically mean that we shouldn't let boys play with trucks and girls with dolls? We should give them the choice at two years old? How can you make a choice at that age??


Ima buy my niece a bb gun when she's old enough :woot:

























and if she doesn't want to use it I'll guilt trip her into using it by saying I spent a lot of money on it cause I love her so much and not to become an expert marksman would be a slap in my face :mad:

#64
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Ima buy my niece a bb gun when she's old enough http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...


and if she doesn't want to use it I'll guilt trip her into using it by saying I spent a lot of money on it cause I love her so much and not to become an expert marksman would be a slap in my face http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...


Lol okay. And of course there's nothing wrong with that but, just to be pointed out, I have a cousin who's mum didn't want guns or military things involved in his upbringing so she was very careful not to let people buy him toy guns, GI Joe's etc.... what did he do? Picked up sticks and started to use them like toy guns.... I think (sometimes) gender roles are something you born with, no matter how much someone tries to nurture someone in one direction or another.

#65
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Cons: Nobody is ENTITLED to children (they're not rights.) Part of growing up involves influences from a feminine and masculine viewpoint. By giving a child only one of these, they miss a crucial viewpoint and influence on their life.


It's not children themselves that everyone should be entitled to, exactly. It's the right to be able to bring a child into their family.
And children should have the right to be brought up in a loving home, with loving parents. It doesn't matter if those parents happen to be two women, or two men, or a woman and a man.

Parents aren't the only people who have an influence on a child's life. You ask any child who they look up to and who has an influence on them, and it's almost guaranteed they'll name their favourite sporting hero or some celebrity. Hell, there are even grandparents, aunties, uncles, neighbours. Parents are not the only influence on a child.

#66
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I often thought that adopted children are much more loved by their parents whether same sex or not because they are most wanted

#67
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I think (sometimes) gender roles are something you born with, no matter how much someone tries to nurture someone in one direction or another.

I do not agree with this. I think gender roles are something that society makes up. Gender roles are all around you, you can't avoid them, escape them, or thereby not not be influenced by them.

I often thought that adopted children are much more loved by their parents whether same sex or not because they are most wanted

Why would adopted children be more loved? You don't need to want something for a very long time to be able to love it when you've got it.

#68
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Yeah I agree with the gender-roles thing. I mean, if your boy grabs a baby doll and wants it, don't take it away from him. A lot of times though I feel like kids pick up on their niches pretty early on and start wanting gender-"appropriate" toys. I always wanted boy toys and my parents let me have them, but that could have just been me.

Lol okay. And of course there's nothing wrong with that but, just to be pointed out, I have a cousin who's mum didn't want guns or military things involved in his upbringing so she was very careful not to let people buy him toy guns, GI Joe's etc.... what did he do? Picked up sticks and started to use them like toy guns.... I think (sometimes) gender roles are something you born with, no matter how much someone tries to nurture someone in one direction or another.

You're not born with them, you just pick up on the way society does things pretty early on.

#69
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I do not agree with this. I think gender roles are something that society makes up. Gender roles are all around you, you can't avoid them, escape them, or thereby not not be influenced by them.

The way I interpreted her response was that we merely are who we are when we are born despite all the conditioning, so therefore whatever role we find ourselves in whether it be along side societies standards or not is what we are, a part of our being. Some things require little to no influence.

#70
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That's not what I meant. But it is obviously the case that most parents follow gender rules when they have children... such as names?

Then what did you mean?
And just because many, if not almost all do it, doesn't make it anymore right. Many people didn't speak up in the third Reich, doesn't make that good either.

Gender roles basically comes down to a way of thinking where females are viewed as lesser beings. Only good for cooking and doing things as "shallow" as only caring for how they look. Only giving girls pink toys to play with and only "your own little beauty salon" and "your own little kitchen", but not superheroes (aka people that are strong and fight injustice and have power) in a wide variety of colours and whatnot because they are "not suitable" for girls perpetuates and reinforces women to be second-class citizens who are no good for "real jobs" and "real responsibilities"
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#71
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How is it possible to avoid all gender roles. You've got to put clothes on your kid and most clothes aren't unisex, they're boyish or girlish. Not necessarily pink, but still. And if a boy wants to wear a dress he's all fine to do so, but the vast majority of parents would dress boys only in pants and shirt, while most parents would dress girls in skirts and dresses too (in addition to pants) unless their kids asks for something different.
The same goes for toys. Give your child what they want, not what's deemed appropriate for their gender, or what you think they should get because it defies that gender role. And while there are many many exceptions, a lot of girls do want to play with Barbies and kitchens.

And to be quite honest, I think it's silly to want to abolish all gender roles. Abolish gender inequality is great, and no one should be forced to live by a role they don't feel that fits them, but gender roles in itself aren't bad.

#72
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Honestly i view jeans and tshirts as unisex clothing. Culture is involved as well in gender role cause kilts haven't taken off everywhere exactly, nor have kimonos. cause one set of people thing an article of clothing is meant for a certain gender doesn't make it so. I just tend to think that different sexes look much much better in certain articles than others.

#73
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Then what did you mean?
And just because many, if not almost all do it, doesn't make it anymore right. Many people didn't speak up in the third Reich, doesn't make that good either.

Gender roles basically comes down to a way of thinking where females are viewed as lesser beings. Only good for cooking and doing things as "shallow" as only caring for how they look. Only giving girls pink toys to play with and only "your own little beauty salon" and "your own little kitchen", but not superheroes (aka people that are strong and fight injustice and have power) in a wide variety of colours and whatnot because they are "not suitable" for girls perpetuates and reinforces women to be second-class citizens who are no good for "real jobs" and "real responsibilities"


I was not going that far.


But to be honest, and I think here we're going to have to agree to disagree, I don't think it matters that much. If a parent decides they're going to dress their little girl in pink and give her dolls then I don't really see a problem with that; when she's old enough she'll make a choice for herself. I was given a dolls house, several barbies and whatnot when I was kid, to see whether I would take to them. I took to climbing trees, making mud pies and generally being a tomboy - I wasn't conditioned by my parents that I had to be a feminine prototype and I do not think that by giving a girl child dolls, or showing them how to cook, conditions them into being a "second-class citizen".
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#74
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GENDER exists. GENDER ROLES are a social construct and potentially harmful to a person, and most definitely to some children. The point is not eradicating pink toys, and blue toys but to show children that it's okay to play with either of them. Which is something that is not done. You see it in ads, it's in schools and okay, you may have been lucky that your parents let you play with whatever toy you wanted but you are not in the majority.

Gender roles enforce gender inequality.

Honestly i view jeans and tshirts as unisex clothing. Culture is involved as well in gender role cause kilts haven't taken off everywhere exactly, nor have kimonos. cause one set of people thing an article of clothing is meant for a certain gender doesn't make it so. I just tend to think that different sexes look much much better in certain articles than others.

Look, I'm buying you that french maid outfit whether you like it or NOT (you'll like what comes after that though.)
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#75
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GENDER exists. GENDER ROLES are a social construct and potentially harmful to a person, and most definitely to some children. The point is not eradicating pink toys, and blue toys but to show children that it's okay to play with either of them. Which is something that is not done. You see it in ads, it's in schools and okay, you may have been lucky that your parents let you play with whatever toy you wanted but you are not in the majority.

Gender roles enforce gender inequality.


Thank you. So in the end it doesn't matter if a baby girl is dressed in pink if when she comes to an age she can choose for herself and she chooses to dress in blue/black/whatever then she isn't disallowed. As you say Gender roles exist and I think we should accept them but allow children to explore all aspects of it; rather than trying to make society asexual.
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#76
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Look, I'm buying you that french maid outfit whether you like it or NOT (you'll like what comes after that though.)

As long as being a maid doesn't require me to clean up the mess afterwards :P

#77
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Thank you. So in the end it doesn't matter if a baby girl is dressed in pink if when she comes to an age she can choose for herself and she chooses to dress in blue/black/whatever then she isn't disallowed. As you say Gender roles exist and I think we should accept them but allow children to explore all aspects of it; rather than trying to make society asexual.

You can't make society asexual because it is a sexual orientation.

No, we should not accept gender roles. I did not say that. We should get rid of them.There shouldn't be roles assigned to any gender. You can't tell someone, "This is how you're supposed to be, but okay, we'll give you the opposite." We need to rid ourselves of the notion that we are going against gender norms, as those should not exist.
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#78
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You can't make society asexual because it is a sexual orientation.

No, we should not accept gender roles. I did not say that. We should get rid of them.There shouldn't be roles assigned to any gender. You can't tell someone, "This is how you're supposed to be, but okay, we'll give you the opposite." We need to rid ourselves of the notion that we are going against gender norms, as those should not exist.


But they do exist and I don't think you will ever eradicate it. It's ingrained in our evolution as a species. I would never tell someone that's how they're supposed to be; that's like telling a homosexual person they're supposed to be straight or vice-versa - it's vile. Okay then if you don't talk about "roles" you can certainly assume that there are "associations". I do see you're point however about sometimes gender can be harmful - but I don't see how that has anything to do with conditioning. For example; women sometimes find it difficult to get into the boardroom or become head of a company; I bet that's got nothing to do with what toys she was allowed to play with as a kid.

#79
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But they do exist and I don't think you will ever eradicate it. It's ingrained in our evolution as a species. I would never tell someone that's how they're supposed to be; that's like telling a homosexual person they're supposed to be straight or vice-versa - it's vile. Okay then if you don't talk about "roles" you can certainly assume that there are "associations". I do see you're point however about sometimes gender can be harmful - but I don't see how that has anything to do with conditioning. For example; women sometimes find it difficult to get into the boardroom or become head of a company; I bet that's got nothing to do with what toys she was allowed to play with as a kid.

No, that's got to do with sexism. Which gender roles enforce.

And some homosexual people are told they're supposed to be straight. Or trans person they're supposed to be whatever they were assigned to at birth. Or a woman can't be head of a company because she's "too emotional/weak to think straight when it comes to making decisions." It happens and it is all linked and wrong.
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#80
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No, that's got to do with sexism. Which gender roles enforce.

And some homosexual people are told they're supposed to be straight. Or trans person they're supposed to be whatever they were assigned to at birth. Or a woman can't be head of a company because she's "too emotional/weak to think straight when it comes to making decisions." It happens and it is all linked and wrong.


I think sexism is an extreme type of gender enforcement. I don't think gender roles lead to sexism - they did in the past - but do not think that because someone is given a doll instead of a truck it doesn't allow them to get to the same places in life.

#81
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I was not going that far.


But to be honest, and I think here we're going to have to agree to disagree, I don't think it matters that much. If a parent decides they're going to dress their little girl in pink and give her dolls then I don't really see a problem with that; when she's old enough she'll make a choice for herself. I was given a dolls house, several barbies and whatnot when I was kid, to see whether I would take to them. I took to climbing trees, making mud pies and generally being a tomboy - I wasn't conditioned by my parents that I had to be a feminine prototype and I do not think that by giving a girl child dolls, or showing them how to cook, conditions them into being a "second-class citizen".

It's great that your parents gave you the choice, but it's not like that for everyone. The point is not to tell gilrls that they cannot play with pink stuff. It is to show them that it is not the only thing available. When you're young society already starts teaching kids what is expected from them. If a girl (not to say boys aren't hurt by gender roles either) walk into Toys'r'us or whatever. A parent, probably without thinking about it, will guide her to the pink section (and yes really pink. I've been there today and there is NO toy that is meant for a girl that isn't pink, literally). She will see dolls, which are supposed to teach her how to handle children (because, y'know, a woman's only fullfillment is in being a mother), little model-kitchens and beauty salons. On the way out she catches a glimpse at the boys' section: the before-mentioned superheroes, playmobil police station, the lego architecture kind of things.
What does she learn? "I'm expected to cook, look beautiful and have children, while men are supposed to save the world, be it with their supernatural powers, or simply a cop, and build houses and be active."

But since this is the adoption thread: a feminine and masculine way is not needed to raise a child. And even if, what are you going to say to single-parents? Their childs "other point of view" is missing, too. Missing normative gender roles actually helpful because it's one person more who will not perpetuate them.

#82
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Giving someone a doll instead of a truck isn't the problem. It's telling them that giving them the doll instead of the truck is the norm. Gender roles try to define gender on a basis of material things and pseudo science.

Right. Okay. It's dictionary time.

"Gender roles refer to the set of social and behavioral norms that are considered to be socially appropriate for individuals of a specific sex in the context of a specific culture, which differ widely between cultures and over time."
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#83
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What a wonderful world it would be if there was no such thing as gender and we were all vegetarians.

#84
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What a wonderful world it would be if there was no such thing as gender and we were all vegetarians.

Maybe I'd still be able to frolic around with my sheep then. You'll always live in my heart, bouncing rainbow sheep. You always will.

And my avatar.
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#85
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But they do exist and I don't think you will ever eradicate it. It's ingrained in our evolution as a species. I would never tell someone that's how they're supposed to be; that's like telling a homosexual person they're supposed to be straight or vice-versa - it's vile. Okay then if you don't talk about "roles" you can certainly assume that there are "associations". I do see you're point however about sometimes gender can be harmful - but I don't see how that has anything to do with conditioning. For example; women sometimes find it difficult to get into the boardroom or become head of a company; I bet that's got nothing to do with what toys she was allowed to play with as a kid.

That akward moment when you like something instead of quoting it...

Gender roles manifest not only in toys. You have to teach children that they can choose to be what they want in every aspect of their lives. Toys is a starting point.

And what the fuck?? Gender roles lead to sexism!

#86
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I understand the idea of not saying that certain things are normal or not. But if you look back over historical evidence and I mean way back to hunter-gather civilisations there was a study done that the reason women went out to pick berries etc was because they were more drawn to the colour PINK. They stayed at home and raised children because they have the capability to have children. We are lucky now because women are not forced to stay at home and look after children (in western societies), equally it is not scorned if a man becomes a house-husband. Girls are generally thought to like babies as opposed to boys liking them because we are the only ones with the capability to have them (as a general rule). You cannot eradicate "general rules" from society because there is simply not enough scope to provide every option for everybody - society, the economy and social structure would fall apart.

What a wonderful world it would be if there was no such thing as gender and we were all vegetarians.


Waa.... then we'd have nothing to argue about???

#87
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Waa.... then we'd have nothing to argue about???

There's maths. The universe. Science.
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#88
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There's maths. The universe. Science.


Maths is far too complicated. I could give the universe a crack though.

#89
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It's great that your parents gave you the choice, but it's not like that for everyone. The point is not to tell gilrls that they cannot play with pink stuff. It is to show them that it is not the only thing available. When you're young society already starts teaching kids what is expected from them. If a girl (not to say boys aren't hurt by gender roles either) walk into Toys'r'us or whatever. A parent, probably without thinking about it, will guide her to the pink section (and yes really pink. I've been there today and there is NO toy that is meant for a girl that isn't pink, literally). She will see dolls, which are supposed to teach her how to handle children (because, y'know, a woman's only fullfillment is in being a mother), little model-kitchens and beauty salons. On the way out she catches a glimpse at the boys' section: the before-mentioned superheroes, playmobil police station, the lego architecture kind of things.
What does she learn? "I'm expected to cook, look beautiful and have children, while men are supposed to save the world, be it with their supernatural powers, or simply a cop, and build houses and be active."

But since this is the adoption thread: a feminine and masculine way is not needed to raise a child. And even if, what are you going to say to single-parents? Their childs "other point of view" is missing, too. Missing normative gender roles actually helpful because it's one person more who will not perpetuate them.

When I was a little kid and had a mini kitchen and Barbies I didn't think "I'm supposed to cook and look pretty. That's my future role in life". I liked pretending to bake and dressing Barbies and making them do plays so that's why I had a kitchen and dolls. I had no interest whatsoever in playing with an action figure shooting at villains. And I think likewise most boys would not want a make up doll.
And before this I never even thought of super heroes or action figures enforcing that men are supposed to save the world/are stronger/whatever and that girls get baby dolls because raising a baby is their only purpose. I think that's really far-fetched and no child will think that. Toy companies aren't some sort of misogynist conspiracy.

I agree that kids should not only have access to toys deemed appropriate for their gender, but what you're saying is way over the top to me.

and not related to my argument: I think Playmobil is a very unisex toy.
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#90
Yussef

Yussef
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When my cousin was younger, we'd always play with barbies together and he used to braid my hair until his mother found out and she never let him play with me again.

When my brother was younger, his bike broke so I lent him my pink bike and my dad made him get off it and then slapped him for riding a girl bicycle.

At my university, there is no female football team because it is not a feminine sport. That was their exact reason.

Point is, you're lucky (and I can say with total honesty that I'm happy for you) that you were never affected by society's current norms but not everyone is. And it is not over the top. Just because you have never experienced it doesn't mean nobody has.
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