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US Defense Bill Would Allow for Indefinitely Detaining Citizens

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#31
uhleckseee

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I just purely like to blame Obama for everything thing though http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...
If a get a flat tire "Goddammit Obama!!!"
It's a fun bandwagon http://www.greendaycommunity.org/public/...

Haha. Sorry. I've just seen a lot of people all over my Facebook feed saying "Fuck Obama, if we never elected him, this wouldn't have happened!" and all of that kind of bullshit. It pisses me off that people just don't understand the way our government works, yet decide to bash it constantly. I was frustrated.
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#32
fukingcounterstrike

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Haha. Sorry. I've just seen a lot of people all over my Facebook feed saying "Fuck Obama, if we never elected him, this wouldn't have happened!" and all of that kind of bullshit. It pisses me off that people just don't understand the way our government works, yet decide to bash it constantly. I was frustrated.

No need to apologize :happy:

I picked it up solely from habit of saying it without any backing to annoy Andres, and well, it's habit now :P
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#33
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Yeah, the average 13 year old is an expert at massively organized DDoS attacks and hacking of sites that pay tens of thousands of dollars in security each year.


well YES,

In January 2011, the British police arrested five boys and men between the ages of 15 and 26 with suspicion of participating in Anonymous DDOS attacks.*
as well as a sixteen year old boy being held by the police in south London on suspicion of breaching the Computer Misuse Act 1990**
In December 2010, the Dutch police arrested a 16-year old for cyberattacks against Visa, MasterCard and PayPal in conjunction with Anonymous' DDOS attacks against companies opposing Wikileaks.***

*) Uk.reuters.com. January 27, 2011
**)Bbc.co.uk. 2011-07-19
***)Pcworld.com. 2010-12-09

well, it seems they ARE a bunch of childs.

#34
Trotsky

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well YES,

In January 2011, the British police arrested five boys and men between the ages of 15 and 26 with suspicion of participating in Anonymous DDOS attacks.*
as well as a sixteen year old boy being held by the police in south London on suspicion of breaching the Computer Misuse Act 1990**
In December 2010, the Dutch police arrested a 16-year old for cyberattacks against Visa, MasterCard and PayPal in conjunction with Anonymous' DDOS attacks against companies opposing Wikileaks.***

*) Uk.reuters.com. January 27, 2011
**)Bbc.co.uk. 2011-07-19
***)Pcworld.com. 2010-12-09

well, it seems they ARE a bunch of childs.


So the fact that teenagers sometimes participate in Anonymous proves what exactly?

To deny the power and sophistication of Anonymous is pretty stupid, they have accomplished huge things, and sporadic arrests of a few members haven't managed to take down the group by any means.
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#35
Snoopy.

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So the fact that teenagers sometimes participate in Anonymous proves what exactly?

To deny the power and sophistication of Anonymous is pretty stupid, they have accomplished huge things, and sporadic arrests of a few members haven't managed to take down the group by any means.


what i wanted to make clear is that a lot of so called "anonymous" is under age, highly intelligent and outrageous bored. the main reason why they hack giant websites is "FOR THE LULZ"
c'mon saying they actually have power is pretty stupid, and IF the US government randomly arrests/kills "members" of "Anonymous", I'll be the last one to care about them.

#36
uhleckseee

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what i wanted to make clear is that a lot of so called "anonymous" is under age, highly intelligent and outrageous bored. the main reason why they hack giant websites is "FOR THE LULZ"
c'mon saying they actually have power is pretty stupid, and IF the US government randomly arrests/kills "members" of "Anonymous", I'll be the last one to care about them.

For a correction, there is an organization similar to Anonymous but they do it "FOR THE LULZ." They're called LULZSEC or something like that. People thought they were behind the Sony hacking a while back.

I personally love Anon. They have amazing points and they do want to see positive change in this country. Hacking, eh, not a huge fan, but they're trying to get their point across...and what better way in a mediated society than to take over the media?

#37
Radithor

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The only thing likely to cause a revolution in America is McDonalds reducing the size of a Big Mac.

They shall abolish the Big Mac, which will be replaced with the Mini Mac. 6 months later, they'll come back with the Classic Mac, which will simply be the old style Big Mac. Only now it will have a new name and a bigger price tag.

#38
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For a correction, there is an organization similar to Anonymous but they do it "FOR THE LULZ." They're called LULZSEC or something like that. People thought they were behind the Sony hacking a while back.

I personally love Anon. They have amazing points and they do want to see positive change in this country. Hacking, eh, not a huge fan, but they're trying to get their point across...and what better way in a mediated society than to take over the media?


“ We [Anonymous] just happen to be a group of people on the internet who need — just kind of an outlet to do as we wish, that we wouldn't be able to do in regular society. ...That's more or less the point of it. Do as you wish. ... There's a common phrase: 'we are doing it for the lulz.' ”

—Trent Peacock. : The face of Anonymous



#39
MrsBillieJoe95

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I really do think the government is getting out of hand. I have no comment at the moment about the bill- I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the bill is saying. The voice on the video is throwing me off a lot and is making it kinda hard for me to understand what they're saying (or trying to at least). I haven't read the articles yet, though, but I'm getting ready to.

Edited by MrsBillieJoe95, 11 December 2011 - 01:44 PM.


#40
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‎""The sponsors of the bill monkeyed around with a few minor details, but all of the core dangers remain — the bill authorizes the president to order the military to indefinitely imprison without charge or trial American citizens and others found far from any battlefield, even in the United States itself. The bill strikes at the very heart of American values," Christopher Anders, senior legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, said in a statement. "Based on suspicion alone, no place and no person are off-limits to military detention without charge or trial.""

Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz1gSwnracn


" perhaps the most disturbing aspect of all is the portion of the bill, S 1867, that would give the President the sole authority to declare individuals as 'enemy combatants' and thus subject them to being stripped of all of their Constitutional rights, placed under military arrest, and hauled off to some unnamed facility where they will be incarcerated indefinitely--all without a warrant, without a court order, and without legal oversight."

Read more: http://www.examiner....ional-questions

#41
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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I feel like I've been stripped of all Constitutional rights, hauled off to an unnamed facility and imprisoned indefinitely every time I go through airport security. How is this any different?

#42
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With this they can detain you until you die without trial whether or not you are a terrorist.

#43
Velocity

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I'm really starting to hate this fucking country.

#44
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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With this they can detain you until you die without trial whether or not you are a terrorist.

Clearly you've never refused to go through one of those naked body scanner deals at the airport. Sometimes I wonder if they take so long to find someone for the pat-down simply because they hope you'll just give up and go through the cancer box.

#45
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Clearly you've never refused to go through one of those naked body scanner deals at the airport. Sometimes I wonder if they take so long to find someone for the pat-down simply because they hope you'll just give up and go through the cancer box.


I have suffered every type of abuse that exists, I do not relish the idea of having to go through it for an eternity longer than what happens at the airport all because I decided to keep food in my home.

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#46
Trotsky

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This is the same news story as the Population Control thread, so I'm merging it into there. I'm also going to change the title to make it more clear to everyone.

#47
Floyd Pinkerton

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A friend of mine mentioned the world trying to bring the population back down to 500 million. Think that could actually happen?

#48
ScreamsInSilence815

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Pretty soon you won't be able to criticize the people in government without going to trial for being a Red.
In all seriousness it's terrifying that the government is trying more and more to pull things over on us. And the sad thing is, it's working. People are putting too much trust in those in power.
That's personally what I think all this 2012 bullshit is going to be about. Not some nuclear holocaust or major pandemic or alien invasion. There's going to be a full-scale riot in America - another revolution, if you will.

#49
Floyd Pinkerton

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Personally, I think that'd be awesome. It's about time that happened.

#50
KarlyLovesGD

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First the internet bill, and now this.

Does the US government want a big ass riot?

#51
Floyd Pinkerton

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First the internet bill, and now this.

Does the US government was a big ass riot?

Pretty much, yeah.

#52
Trotsky

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A friend of mine mentioned the world trying to bring the population back down to 500 million. Think that could actually happen?


That's conspiracy theory bullshit. Overpopulation is a real concern and in a hundred years, unless we technologically progressed to adequate sustainability, we may or may not be in a crisis. The world can easily handle 7 billion people, even presently with our current resources, we could have 10 billion and still not be in too deep of trouble.

The fact is that just isn't going to happen. Nations want their populations to grow. That's why the Russian government, a country that's been in population decline for 20 years, is basically on their hands and knees and begging people to fuck without the rubber.

#53
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Personally, I think that'd be awesome. It's about time that happened.


Finally get the assholes to listen, maybe, but it'd be bloody.

#54
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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Personally, I think that'd be awesome. It's about time that happened.

That's a pretty asinine comment. A massive, nationwide riot would result in thousands, if not tens of thousands, of lives lost. There are better ways to affect change than to stand around throwing shit at police and getting hosed down with machineguns.
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#55
Trotsky

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There's going to be a full-scale riot in America - another revolution, if you will.


Not that it wouldn't be long coming and well deserved, but we just aren't there yet. There are situations like Egypt where there is a full scale uprising and the government eventually steps down (which is to say, turns power over to the military, which isn't doing a much better job than Mubarak at the moment), and then you have situations like Libya where the government will fight to its last dying breath. But the USA is a global superpower, and it is not just the American government, but much of the world that has an interest in keeping the order preserved.

I hope direct action such as the occupations grow, and I hope they gain enough momentum that the next wave actually is capable of storming city blocks and holding their ground against the police - because that will be a decisive factor that will tilt power into the hands of protesters. But, the US government is not going to dissolve anytime soon. I expect it will exist in its present form, that is to say with the three branches and the constitution being considered sacred, for much longer.

And I'm sorry to be such a pessimist, but here is what we're facing - Obama is going to run against Gingrich or Romney, it's going to be a close race. I suspect Republican momentum swung as far as its pendulum can go last year, and it's going to swing back towards Democrats. We're going to end up with either a Republican President but perhaps a slightly more Democratic Senate which will obstruct extreme legislation, or we're going to end up with Obama re-elected, the Senate still under Democratic control, and the House Republicans rolled back but still with a decisive majority. Either way, government deadlock will be prolonged and major events will not happen for another election cycle.

Meanwhile, grassroots movements are not going to have a tremendous influence until the people collectively understand their demands. The tea party has faded, the occupy movement sparked up and is hanging on, I think eventually there will be a synthesis of uniting principles. Even capitalists and socialists can all agree that it's time for an end to tax sponsored bailouts. Right and left can collectively stand against atrocities like SOPA and Protect IP. For example, when I recently wrote a research paper in defense of file sharing I found some libertarian theorists who expressed similar sentiments as myself. Or take Ben and I and our similar hate of TSA radiation molestation. People are also going to demand an end to our affairs in the Middle East. Iraq is more or less over. Pakistan is throwing us out, Afghanistan is a black hole. People are realizing the panic of a nuclear Iran is fear-mongering to herd their votes.

I think eventually a solid movement in favor of these things, civil liberties being strictly defended, is going to emerge, and they will force Republicans and Democrats to adapt. But we are not on the brink of revolution. My hope is not for a full scale uprising but for this year's election to be the last farce (because it's too late to save this one), before voters are multitude enough to make a difference from a populist standpoint.
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#56
Floyd Pinkerton

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That's a pretty asinine comment. A massive, nationwide riot would result in thousands, if not tens of thousands, of lives lost. There are better ways to affect change than to stand around throwing shit at police and getting hosed down with machineguns.

I wasn't really thinking of anything along the lines of mowing each other down with machineguns, I was tginking more along the lines of major protests, without people getting killed off left and right. So maybe not so much a "riot", just a big protest that actually gets shit done.
I can honestly say that if there ends up being some nationwide protest, I'd be the first person standing by them cheering for them to get shit done. It's about time for a change.
That's all I was really trying to say.

#57
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comment removed.

Edited by Honey Emerald, 14 December 2011 - 09:12 PM.


#58
TatorNuts

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I've been researching this bill for weeks now and it's truly a terrifying reality. It's even more terrifying now that President Obama has withdrawn his veto threat as of yesterday afternoon. The bill will pass with it's current context, language and legislation. The changes made to the bill were purely cosmetic and didn't address or involve the indefinite detention provisions included within the document. The supporters and those who are telling us to calm down clearly don't understand the severity of this situation. No, the government won't abduct you off the street, but they simply can if they see fit. No, they won't do so unless you are declared a terrorist (al-Quida, Taliban, or associated forces supporter), but the bill nor does any legislation outline what describes a terrorist or an associated force. I'm commenting on how I disagree with this government's actions and this could very well be deemed as opposition and cause for me to be imprisioned for life without the right to due process or habeas corpus.

For this to be passed, it supercedes our founding father's most basic of human and American rights. The Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration of Independence are hungover a candle to burn while this document takes its place as supreme law of the land. We've sacrificed our Constitutional rights with the Patriot Act, but now this bill paired with its sister bill (Internet Piracy Act) are superceding the amendments one by one. We've been so focused on not fearing the terrorists, but now we pass legislation that simply says we are afraid and we're willing to do anything our government proposes to be protection.

What happened to looking to the past for answers? History should not be repeated, yet we standby and watch our rights be stripped away. Nazi-occupied Germany had provisions like this set it place. Military were used as police and captured whoever they chose to be enemies of the state. The scariest thing of all is we could be on the dawn of another Civil War. Our freedoms are being taken from us by force by those who were elected to standup for us and protect us.

I'd like you to take a moment and picture the US if John McCain were elected as President in 2008. This is the man who added this provision into the NDAA. He would have these emense executive powers paired with this crazed viewpoint of imprisoning our own citizens. He's declared our mainland as part of the battlefield as well as the rest of the world. How do you feel about that?

#59
Tre's Busted Drumkit

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I can honestly say that if there ends up being some nationwide protest, I'd be the first person standing by them cheering for them to get shit done. It's about time for a change.

As I've said before, if everyone camped out to "occupy" various cities would show up on voting day, the political makeup of this country would be significantly different. It's one thing to get angry and protest. It's another to show up at the ballot box and voice that anger in the way that's heard loudest and most clearly by all; vote the incumbents out of office.

#60
Dylan.

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As John has already said, I think the gravity of this bill has been widely overblown. The government is not going to start plucking out individual citizens for exercising their right to free speech. Not that the cops wouldn't be thrilled to have that power. Let's face it. The biggest threat this bill gives this country is the police force's perceived military status. We are already treating our own citizens like Arab Spring Revolutionists. The only reason that is happening is because the cops are being pressured by politicians, who are in turn being pressured by corporate executives to shut the occupations down.

It is not good for banks and corporations if the Occupy protests continue to go on. Mind you, the occupations are horridly mild and are hardly leftist demonstrations by any standard. However, the minute the people begin to think in terms of economic equality, the corporations lose public favor. Then the people begin to elect officials that won't serve as puppets to the rape of our legislative process. Then, taxes go up, and people demand higher wages. It is always better for business to shut the people up and keep them afraid. People are less likely to protest their own country if they are more concerned with their own security. What do you think the Patriot Act was? It dismantled our civil liberties in the midst of the terrorist scare. Now they try to pass this bill that can allow indefinite detention? What do you think that will do? It will silence the masses who fear being arrested for voicing their opinion. Even if that has no constitutional authority, it is still an effective tool for shutting the poor up who would otherwise scream for reform and revolution.

I do not think a revolution is coming any time soon, but I am clamoring for one. It is time to break loose from the fetters of republican democracy and push for social, economic, and political reforms in how our country is run.

This bill is nothing to fear, because they can't shut us up. If Obama signs it...fuck him, what's the goddamn military going to do about it if we don't shut up? They can't lock us all up. The worst thing the citizens can do is simply stop talking about this bill and pretend it never happened. The worst thing we can do is begin to accept anything less than total freedom. That is how I see it.



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