Butch Walker breaks down FOAM at NAAM

[Beerjeezus]

3 minutes ago, Sheenius said:

what time in the video do they show the demo version? 

 

Someone posted it with a timestamp either here or in the other thread about it, I don't remember anymore

[dannygreen]

3 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

I didn't mind them in FOAM because they don't stand out as much, but now that I've heard the demo version, I like it better. Not only because the claps are less prominent, but also because it's less muffled 

It's probably because it was mainly mixed In-the-box (Only using a computer) in that stage so it tends to emphasize high freq, Then it was added some warmth on the low freq from the  analogue processing during the other steps. Butch mix is good but you can hear it's raw, a bit dull and too clean (considered the genre of music);

there is no third dimension in the song and the vocals are a bit out of the mix. As a producer he has to just give an idea and I think he did it perfectly for the final purpose

[Beyza]

14 minutes ago, Sheenius said:

what time in the video do they show the demo version? 

4:22:15

[Lenny]

20 minutes ago, Beyza said:

4:22:15

thank you. I gave it a listen I actually like GD's mix better than Butch's. I'm not downplaying his technical knowledge just a taste thing. 

I don't like the muffled and distorted vocals in his mix but I can see from the demo a little bit of that was handed to him. I would have maybe took this part of the song and outsourced out to a large studio. Get the sound and quality just right for a big vocal performance. 

He claims his touch is to add spice but I thought he had a good opportunity to substitute the claps with a second guitar. In the same vein that The Clash would have done. Also the second guitar in the chorus is prominent in the demo and actually has perfect tone and adds flavor to it. For the rhythm track I always thought it needed just a bit more drive to it. 

 

[Sixtrix]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Strummer said:

That's true to an extent, but Tchad could've done a better job at preserving and enhancing what was good about Butch's raw mix instead of really altering everything. A mixer doesn't force their style onto a record, they take what the band and production team have done and elevate it. Tchad didn't do that, as you can tell listening to this raw mix and the final mix side-by-side.

Whether or not liking the raw mix better or the final mix is pure subjective taste. I think that’s the main “problem” with music because there are so many different kinds of taste and it’s impossible to please every single person, especially the ones who are really into the technical stuff with audio/music.

The band and Butch approved what Tchad did to their raw mix. I guess Tchad has a different way of mixing and I think that’s what the band and Butch were looking for (as mentioned in the video).

[That Dude]

Who is producing Magnum Opus?

[Lenny]

16 minutes ago, That Dude said:

Who is producing Magnum Opus?

Butch Vig

[MaxGD]

2 hours ago, Sheenius said:

thank you. I gave it a listen I actually like GD's mix better than Butch's. I'm not downplaying his technical knowledge just a taste thing. 

I don't like the muffled and distorted vocals in his mix but I can see from the demo a little bit of that was handed to him. I would have maybe took this part of the song and outsourced out to a large studio. Get the sound and quality just right for a big vocal performance. 

He claims his touch is to add spice but I thought he had a good opportunity to substitute the claps with a second guitar. In the same vein that The Clash would have done. Also the second guitar in the chorus is prominent in the demo and actually has perfect tone and adds flavor to it. For the rhythm track I always thought it needed just a bit more drive to it. 

 

It was super interesting to learn everything butch did was basically directly what Billie wanted. I also think the drums sounded a lot better on the version butch had before he sent it off where the low end was brought up

[Lenny]

34 minutes ago, MaxGD said:

It was super interesting to learn everything butch did was basically directly what Billie wanted. I also think the drums sounded a lot better on the version butch had before he sent it off where the low end was brought up

Well Billie has always wanted to add lo-fi type sounds to their mixes. He talked a lot about it over the last decade. There's some small moments of it on Rev Rad as well. 

[legendary]

 

[Flashback]

But I am kinda shocked that these songs were mixed and mastered by experienced persons but FRA sounds so unbalanced and muddy in the low ends 🤔

[MaxGD]

3 hours ago, Sheenius said:

Well Billie has always wanted to add lo-fi type sounds to their mixes. He talked a lot about it over the last decade. There's some small moments of it on Rev Rad as well. 

Very true! Say goodbye always gave me that feel up until the chorus and outlaws too

3 hours ago, Flashback said:

But I am kinda shocked that these songs were mixed and mastered by experienced persons but FRA sounds so unbalanced and muddy in the low ends 🤔

They all sound muddy in the low ends haha. Fire ready aim is more noticeable since it’s a consistent sound throughout the whole song. 

[Josh100_3]

Man I could listen to Billie play powerchords all day. Those isolated guitar tracks sounded fantastic.

I would love more stuff like this. Imagine going through American Idiot's multi tracks.

[Red]

Thanks for this, it's amazing how much stuff is hidden inside these songs. Brings me to appreciate them a whole lot more!

[Slave To The Network]

Oh my god this is so cool! How awesome is it to be able to hear all the instruments separated like that and hear them with and without filters? This is fascinating! I would love it if I could just be able to separate any Green Day song of my choosing into its components like that and really be able to isolate and appreciate each part. I never noticed that guitar part that Butch added over the chorus before (the one at 4:30:25) and it's fucking badass! Was that only in the demo or is that in the album version too and I just can't hear it?

[Josh100_3]

1 hour ago, Green Day In Seattle said:

Oh my god this is so cool! How awesome is it to be able to hear all the instruments separated like that and hear them with and without filters? This is fascinating! I would love it if I could just be able to separate any Green Day song of my choosing into its components like that and really be able to isolate and appreciate each part. I never noticed that guitar part that Butch added over the chorus before (the one at 4:30:25) and it's fucking badass! Was that only in the demo or is that in the album version too and I just can't hear it?

Check out the multi tracks section in downloads, you’ll love it. 

[greendepent]

Finally some worthy material of this session. I wasn't too surprised for the elections of the record, as always is Billie's fault. What I mean is that you have to be naive to think that you can force a band as big as this one, that always had total creavity control over their stuff, into something that seems unfamiliar territory for a lot of their listeners.

Only for your information, if you need to listen "superior" versions of the songs then you can buy the CD or the vynil. YT or spotify will always reencode and recompress for easier streaming. In that way, you will lose a lot of information, especially the low and high end. Cds will give you cleaner sound overall, but vynil will give more dynamics. I can't wait for hear all of this!

[MillenniumFan]

14 hours ago, legendary said:

 

Man, just reminds me that FOAM is still my favourite song on this record by far. It has a certain heaviness in the guitars/ bass and a build up that I really like. The falsetto, muffled vocals and clapping maybe still drag this one down a bit, but I still like the song even so. Also, as was pointed out, I disagree with the way Butch went on to master it, but taste is of course as always subjective.

I can appreciate Oh Yeah in some ways (especially lyrically), but I still find it VERY hard to think of anything positive about FRA other than that it's over pretty quickly (thank god). 

[Brutalitops]

I'm having fucking 'nam flashbacks with Butch right now. Being a Weezer fan, I've ridden this ride before with Pacific Daydream. He breaks down things in an impressive manner, but at the end of the day, his production tends to have multie issues in the mix. It's already apparent so far on FOAM that the muddiness is there, much like how on Pacific Daydream, there were entire instrumental tracks completely buried in the mix. 

Do not get me started on Raditude either. Songs that, at their core could have been extremely solid, run through the Butch filter and coming out the other side with silly bells and whistles and too much lost along the way. 

[jengd]

5 minutes ago, Brutalitops said:

I'm having fucking 'nam flashbacks with Butch right now. Being a Weezer fan, I've ridden this ride before with Pacific Daydream. He breaks down things in an impressive manner, but at the end of the day, his production tends to have multie issues in the mix. It's already apparent so far on FOAM that the muddiness is there, much like how on Pacific Daydream, there were entire instrumental tracks completely buried in the mix. 

Do not get me started on Raditude either. Songs that, at their core could have been extremely solid, run through the Butch filter and coming out the other side with silly bells and whistles and too much lost along the way. 

I understand that what we get is what the band want and that’s fine, what I don’t understand is why musicians and not just GD, think their music sounds better with all this additional stuff going on.  Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should! All that musicianship, or a lot of it, gets lost.

[HAPPY ZOMBIE UNICORN]

1 hour ago, jengd said:

I understand that what we get is what the band want and that’s fine, what I don’t understand is why musicians and not just GD, think their music sounds better with all this additional stuff going on.  Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should! All that musicianship, or a lot of it, gets lost.

Honestly I do like the elements they added to these tracks. I think the clapping as well as the additional guitar tracks elevates FOAM and do not make it worse. As the piano and synths in FRA, or the distortions and echoes in Oh Yeah!. At the same time I understand what you are saying, I also love raw material, sometimes I even prefer to listen to demolicious rather then the Trilogy, and I love raw sounding records with a live vibe as well, in some cases at least  

I think it’s an artistic choice in the end, but I understand the band wanting to add depth to these tracks. I think them as well as many people listening to contemporary music got exposed to so many new projects and artists experimenting and using very complex production processes and sounds, especially thanks to new hip hop and alternative/electronic music artists. And they want to try that, I respect it. 

As I understand and respect people wanting a cleaner or rawer sound. Taste is taste. Fortunately this is one of those bands giving their best live, and live performances give us great, rawer versions of their songs that people having trouble with such production process can appreciate  Personally, I prefer to have an album recorded and produced in this format, rather then a production that attempts to recreate a live sound (sometimes failing and just resulting very basic IMHO) like the Trilogy one, and to leave the live vibe to the live performances.

[Brutalitops]

56 minutes ago, HAPPY ROOTING UNICORN said:

Honestly I do like the elements they added to these tracks. I think the clapping as well as the additional guitar tracks elevates FOAM and do not make it worse. As the piano and synths in FRA, or the distortions and echoes in Oh Yeah!. At the same time I understand what you are saying, I also love raw material, sometimes I even prefer to listen to demolicious rather then the Trilogy, and I love raw sounding records with a live vibe as well, in some cases at least  

I think it’s an artistic choice in the end, but I understand the band wanting to add depth to these tracks. I think them as well as many people listening to contemporary music got exposed to so many new projects and artists experimenting and using very complex production processes and sounds, especially thanks to new hip hop and alternative/electronic music artists. And they want to try that, I respect it. 

As I understand and respect people wanting a cleaner or rawer sound. Taste is taste. Fortunately this is one of those bands giving their best live, and live performances give us great, rawer versions of their songs that people having trouble with such production process can appreciate  Personally, I prefer to have an album recorded and produced in this format, rather then a production that attempts to recreate a live sound (sometimes failing and just resulting very basic IMHO) like the Trilogy one, and to leave the live vibe to the live performances.

My criticisms of Butch actually have nothing to do with adding these extra parts. In fact, most of them aren't inherently bad. 

 But what's the point of adding these layers if they become completely buried in the mix? There are tons of parts on FOAM even across 3 songs that feel hidden. The synth you mentioned, well you can barely hear it under the blown out production. 

This has been a recurring theme amongst Butch produced albums. 

[HAPPY ZOMBIE UNICORN]

11 minutes ago, Brutalitops said:

My criticisms of Butch actually have nothing to do with adding these extra parts. In fact, most of them aren't inherently bad. 

 But what's the point of adding these layers if they become completely buried in the mix? There are tons of parts on FOAM even across 3 songs that feel hidden. The synth you mentioned, well you can barely hear it under the blown out production. 

This has been a recurring theme amongst Butch produced albums. 

Honestly I don't have this feeling at all. I actually appreciate this production for the opposite reason, I love how you can hear these elements and still have them well merged with the main tracks. I noticed and loved the synths in FRA since the first listen for example, but I have to say that in that track you can actually appreciate the depth of these components only using at least a midrange audio system. With my iPhone speakers or earpods those bits are actually getting missed, and part of the track value gets lost, while with proper headphones or on my sound system (that I used for the first listen) it sounds glorious, and those piano and synth bits really make the difference. I think it's understandable because there's so much loud stuff going on, and as balanced as it can be, a shitty speaker will always ruin it. I think with FOAM and Oh yeah! this is not the case, because the "extra elements" are more complementary, FOAM worked really well even when I listened to it via a disturbed radio frequency on my car shitty sound system.

[Brutalitops]

11 minutes ago, HAPPY ROOTING UNICORN said:

Honestly I don't have this feeling at all. I actually appreciate this production for the opposite reason, I love how you can hear these elements and still have them well merged with the main tracks. I noticed and loved the synths in FRA since the first listen for example, but I have to say that in that track you can actually appreciate the depth of these components only using at least a midrange audio system. With my iPhone speakers or earpods those bits are actually getting missed, and part of the track value gets lost, while with proper headphones or on my sound system (that I used for the first listen) it sounds glorious, and those piano and synth bits really make the difference. I think it's understandable because there's so much loud stuff going on, and as balanced as it can be, a shitty speaker will always ruin it. I think with FOAM and Oh yeah! this is not the case, because the "extra elements" are more complementary, FOAM worked really well even when I listened to it via a disturbed radio frequency on my car shitty sound system.

I'm not saying some can't enjoy it, but the "poor speakers" argument has always been a pet peeve of mine. Even just running the songs in a program and observing the wavelengths would demonstrate the poor mixing and "blowing out" of the audio that is present on FOAM 

Then again, RevRad had the same issue so maybe part of it is Billie and co actually thinking "more/louder is better" or something.

Sometimes I wish I never studied production because it made me notice these things I never used to and ruin them for myself, RIP

[Lenny]

1 minute ago, Brutalitops said:

I'm not saying some can't enjoy it, but the "poor speakers" argument has always been a pet peeve of mine. Even just running the songs in a program and observing the wavelengths would demonstrate the poor mixing and "blowing out" of the audio that is present on FOAM 

Then again, RevRad had the same issue so maybe part of it is Billie and co actually thinking "more/louder is better" or something.

Sometimes I wish I never studied production because it made me notice these things I never used to and ruin them for myself, RIP

Is it mixing or blowing out or are their recordings not really that great? From my understanding a lot of this was recorded at OTIS again and then sent to Butch. 

I think for their next effort they need to go back 15 years and be present with the producer through the entire thing. If they record at OTIS and then send to him to "spice" it up isn't that making them just as much as producer on this as Butch?