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Billie Joe Armstrong on new Morrissey Album

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DeJennsitized
1 hour ago, Hermione said:

Which right wing ideologies does he support though? Just because someone has said things that are offensive or has made statements that are racist it doesn't necessarily mean they are a racist or support an ideology. Being against halal slaughter on the basis of animal cruelty, believing that offensive opinions should be allowed to be expressed under free speech, being for stricter immigration or leaving Europe or making a snobby comment about a politician speaking with a slang (English) accent aren't things that are racist in and of themselves, ignorant perhaps but not racist. His actual racist comments have been where he's making his point about animal rights in a deliberately insensitive way to get attention (eg his comment about the Chinese when talking about China's animal rights record). Comments like that should absolutely be called out, but still aren't indicative of a racist or right wing ideology, more like indicative of being rude and a dick.

Just because a Guardian article says he's a right wing bigot it doesn't mean he is, aside from the silly attention seeking controversial/offensive way he makes his points and his animals rights stuff I can't see that he holds any particularly extreme views. Certainly no more extreme than what you get from US Republicans/conservatives or the average Tory. If Billie's going to be condemned for working with Morrissey for his views he better be condemned for working with a whole lot more people who aren't as left wing as him.

 

He also thinks #MeToo is a witch hunt and Kevin Spacey didn’t do anything wrong. Making a racist statement isn’t racist now? The point still stands for me, he has views people would not want to align themselves with if they were strongly against them. They don’t have to be extreme views. The most dangerous form of prejudice is the subtle kind that people try to ignore because it seems harmless, but it’s not.

I don’t see the problem with me saying Billie shouldn’t have collaborated with someone who has these opinions. It’s not a condemnation or a demand for answers, it’s me expressing my disappointment that he’s chosen to overlook opinions he so fundamentally disagrees with (or at least says he does) for the sake of a small voluntary collaboration. 

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Hermione
1 hour ago, DeJennsitized said:

He also thinks #MeToo is a witch hunt and Kevin Spacey didn’t do anything wrong. Making a racist statement isn’t racist now? The point still stands for me, he has views people would not want to align themselves with if they were strongly against them. They don’t have to be extreme views. The most dangerous form of prejudice is the subtle kind that people try to ignore because it seems harmless, but it’s not.

I don’t see the problem with me saying Billie shouldn’t have collaborated with someone who has these opinions. It’s not a condemnation or a demand for answers, it’s me expressing my disappointment that he’s chosen to overlook opinions he so fundamentally disagrees with (or at least says he does) for the sake of a small voluntary collaboration. 

No but someone who isn't racist can say something racist (and should of course be called out for it). If someone says something racist obviously for shock value they may be a racist or they may just be a dick.

Morrissey also has many views that do align with Billie's. I just think there's likely many people he's associated with who hold views as or more different to his and Morrissey's views aren't as extreme or one sided as painted in a left wing newspaper's articles. Believing in stronger immigration control or looser free speech or being pro Brexit or being against halal slaughter on animal welfare grounds or thinking a member of UKIP has good leadership qualities aren't extreme views. Any Republican he's met likely has more extreme views than that. And again you're saying he's chosen to overlook these views/statements when he might not even be aware of them. He met a musician who isn't primarily known for his politics at an event and spent a couple of hours doing a song with him, that isn't aligning himself with his political opinions. 

Not saying there's anything wrong with you saying it, I just disagree with your assessment of Morrissey and of Billie working with him.

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Too domb to die
3 hours ago, DeJennsitized said:

He also thinks #MeToo is a witch hunt 

Many of the accused have had their public careers ruined based on unconfirmed sexual allegations with no due process, just trial by twitter. Listen and believe has had a few innocent casualties, Chris Hardwick, Ryan Seacrest, Aziz Ansari and now Johnny Depp just to name a few.  #metoo has had many positive effects, but it shouldn't be immune from criticism.

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DeJennsitized
2 minutes ago, Too domb to die said:

 it shouldn't be immune from criticism.

Neither should Billie Joe

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Too domb to die

Fair enough.

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Hermione
21 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Neither should Billie Joe

So are you agreeing that the me too movement shouldn't be immune from criticism, or saying that Billie should be criticised for working with someone who criticised the me too movement? Seems kind of contradictory. I'm just not seeing a very convincing picture of Morrissey having extreme right wing views, as soon as you look up the contexts of his quotes you can see he says offensive things out of being ignorant, dumb, rude and an attention seeker but doesn't have particularly extreme or one sided political positions.

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DeJennsitized
27 minutes ago, Hermione said:

So are you agreeing that the me too movement shouldn't be immune from criticism, or saying that Billie should be criticised for working with someone who criticised the me too movement? Seems kind of contradictory. I'm just not seeing a very convincing picture of Morrissey having extreme right wing views, as soon as you look up the contexts of his quotes you can see he says offensive things out of being ignorant, dumb, rude and an attention seeker but doesn't have particularly extreme or one sided political positions.

Calling it a witch hunt is de-legitimizing it completely. I'm only saying we don't have to rush to find excuses for why Billie Joe could possibly be working with such an asshole, it's fine to just not be okay with it. And, as per my previous post, views don't have to be extreme to be damaging, I never said his views were extreme. Ignorance can't always be used as an excuse. Saying Morrissey is only racist because he's dumb doesn't really change my opinion on him. And saying 'maybe Billie just didn't know' doesn't change it either. As I've said several times, if you're as outspoken about politics as Billie, it's worth maybe re-thinking signing your name next to a person who's known for being ignorant and racist. And yes, I do think saying racist things makes you racist. 🤷‍♀️

 

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Hermione
37 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Calling it a witch hunt is de-legitimizing it completely. I'm only saying we don't have to rush to find excuses for why Billie Joe could possibly be working with such an asshole, it's fine to just not be okay with it. And, as per my previous post, views don't have to be extreme to be damaging, I never said his views were extreme. Ignorance can't always be used as an excuse. Saying Morrissey is only racist because he's dumb doesn't really change my opinion on him. And saying 'maybe Billie just didn't know' doesn't change it either. As I've said several times, if you're as outspoken about politics as Billie, it's worth maybe re-thinking signing your name next to a person who's known for being ignorant and racist. And yes, I do think saying racist things makes you racist. 🤷‍♀️

 

There's no instance when someone who isn't racist can say something racist for any reason then? And it makes no difference if he's aware of the quotes that are the reason you don't think he should work with him or not? I can't see much point in arguing further when you see things as black and white as that. It's fine to not be ok with it, some of us just don't think an excuse is needed.

I agree that views don't have to be extreme to be damaging. However if you set a precedent where you don't just criticise the person who holds problematic views, but also anyone who associates with anyone who holds any remotely problematic views even if the views aren't extreme or known to the person you're going to have to start criticising a lot of people. If Morrissey says something problematic (extreme or not) then yeah call him out, however to call out someone for simply associating with someone the level of problematic-ness needs to be a bit higher. Take when Billie said he hoped Steve Jobs dies of cancer. Can Billie be called out for saying that? Sure. Should anyone who works with him now be called out? Of course not, because calling someone out for association is a different standard.

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Joe.

I’m not looking for excuses for Billie, I’m just saying that there isn’t really anything to excuse. 

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DeJennsitized
32 minutes ago, Hermione said:

There's no instance when someone who isn't racist can say something racist for any reason then? And it makes no difference if he's aware of the quotes that are the reason you don't think he should work with him or not? I can't see much point in arguing further when you see things as black and white as that. It's fine to not be ok with it, some of us just don't think an excuse is needed.

I agree that views don't have to be extreme to be damaging. However if you set a precedent where you don't just criticise the person who holds problematic views, but also anyone who associates with anyone who holds any remotely problematic views even if the views aren't extreme or known to the person you're going to have to start criticising a lot of people. If Morrissey says something problematic (extreme or not) then yeah call him out, however to call out someone for simply associating with someone the level of problematic-ness needs to be a bit higher. Take when Billie said he hoped Steve Jobs dies of cancer. Can Billie be called out for saying that? Sure. Should anyone who works with him now be called out? Of course not, because calling someone out for association is a different standard.

Racism is racism, no matter what the reason is for saying it. And I'm saying Morrissey's views are out there for public consumption and I don't think Billie is beyond checking to see if he's being hypocritical by working with him. He's not an idiot. And he's also not just 'anyone', he happens to be someone who vocalises his anti-racism/sexism/xenophobia frequently. And that's the difference. It's basically going "Racists have no place around me, but sure I'll work with someone who holds these views about foreigners as long as it doesn't come up in our collaboration." It's about thoughts vs actions. I'm just disappointed that he hasn't made a stand against people who hold those kind of views. I'll call Billie out for the Steve Jobs comment, sure, but that's not an opinion affecting a whole group of people that he's got the privilege to overlook because he's not part of it. And the collaboration is not accidental passing association either, he clearly made the choice to contribute to Morrissey's album, and something he easily could have politely turned down.

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Hermione
44 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

who holds these views about foreigners

I don't agree that it's clear he holds the views you're alluding to. Being for stronger immigration or pro Brexit doesn't mean he hates foreigners. Being a dumb fool and saying the Chinese are a subspecies for the treatment of animals in the country when speaking on the subject of animal abuse in China is offensive and should be apologised for but doesn't mean he actually hates Chinese people, he was being facetious. He's said plenty of things he should be criticised for but I just disagree that his views are strong enough or clear enough (especially to anyone who hasn't researched him thoroughly) to start criticising everyone who works with him.

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DeJennsitized

If the debate is whether Morrissey is racist or not then we’ll definitely have to agree to disagree. I love Billie but I’m not about to defend Morrissey’s views to make myself feel better about the collaboration. I just hope the song is shit lol 

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Beerjeezus

Hahahaha I love how they threw Billie Joe in - classic Kerrang :lol:

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DeJennsitized
1 hour ago, Beerjeezus said:

Hahahaha I love how they threw Billie Joe in - classic Kerrang :lol:

It’s literally the only reason they reported it in the first place, lol 

Strange she would wait til now to deny that note was written by her though 

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pacejunkie punk
8 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

It’s literally the only reason they reported it in the first place, lol 

Strange she would wait til now to deny that note was written by her though 

It doesn’t sound like the first time she’s denied it. I assume the anti-vaxxer rumour was more recent and she took the opportunity to also readdress this other thing that still persists and won’t go away. 

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Hermione
1 hour ago, DeJennsitized said:

It’s literally the only reason they reported it in the first place, lol 

Strange she would wait til now to deny that note was written by her though 

She's always denied it

The anti vaxxer thing wasn't so much a rumour as her literally saying she was going to raise a "natural vegan child without vaccinations" and talking about doubting vaccines are safe though lol. But still it was clear she wasn't an anti vaccine campaigner or anything, just sounded ignorant. Definitely jumped on unfairly based on views her ex husband had and the unproven note accusation.

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Beerjeezus

I'm honestly not that fussed about anti-vaxxers. It sucks that they put others in danger as well but so do drunk drivers and tbh if someone wishes to die of a preventable desease they're free to do so. I know I probably sound like an ancap now but I really just don't feel concerned for the wellbeing of people who make a decision they prefer to die of pox or measels like a peasant instead of getting a vaccine. Have fun with that I guess. :confused: I'm more conflicted about the morality of letting them endanger their children too, but then again, if someone feels like letting their kid perish in a true 1300s style is their right, it's extremely dumb in my opinion, but if that's a choice people can live with who am I to stop them.

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Joe.
1 hour ago, Beerjeezus said:

Thats Morrissey. Thats kinda been the whole argument for saying this had been overblown. Mans got a screw loose

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Beerjeezus
1 minute ago, pacejunkie punk said:

Vaccines are only as effective as the percentage of people that have them. They do not create 100% lifetime immunity if the disease is still very prevalent. Anti-vaxxers put everyone in danger because even if you are vaccinated it may not protect you from a serious outbreak. We are now seeing serious outbreaks because a critical mass of people are refusing to vaccinate. It affects everyone.  (As does drunk driving if they kill innocent people)

Yes, I know and that's the only issue I really have with anti-vaxxers. I'm willing to live with a slightly increased risk of catching a disease, but if the situation gets much worse, I agree that something will have to be done about it.

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Christian's Inferno!
21 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

I'm honestly not that fussed about anti-vaxxers. It sucks that they put others in danger as well but so do drunk drivers and tbh if someone wishes to die of a preventable desease they're free to do so. I know I probably sound like an ancap now but I really just don't feel concerned for the wellbeing of people who make a decision they prefer to die of pox or measels like a peasant instead of getting a vaccine. Have fun with that I guess. :confused: I'm more conflicted about the morality of letting them endanger their children too, but then again, if someone feels like letting their kid perish in a true 1300s style is their right, it's extremely dumb in my opinion, but if that's a choice people can live with who am I to stop them.

I'm fine with ignorant Anti-Vaxxers who refuse to vaccinate themselves die from their own stupidity. But yeah, once they start impacting their children and other people from their stupidity, then that's where I get fussed about them. Stupid people shouldn't breed but they're able to and it harms society as a whole

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Christian's Inferno!
7 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

Yes, I know and that's the only issue I really have with anti-vaxxers. I'm willing to live with a slightly increased risk of catching a disease, but if the situation gets much worse, I agree that something will have to be done about it.

That's a pretty massive issue to have with them though, right? You say you're "not that fussed" about anti-vaxxers but idk, that alone would make me extremely concerned about anti-vaxxers and how their ignorant choices harm everyone

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Hermione

It sounds like even when she said that she wasn't sure about it and that she's got more educated about it and possibly changed her position now anyway (if she's listening to her doctor like she says). People (particularly celebrities with a platform) who actually advocate for not vaccinating children are a problem but doesn't seem like she really is one.

12 hours ago, Beerjeezus said:

Yes, I know and that's the only issue I really have with anti-vaxxers. I'm willing to live with a slightly increased risk of catching a disease, but if the situation gets much worse, I agree that something will have to be done about it.

Babies who are too young to have been vaccinated yet and vulnerable people with serious illnesses who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons dying because they caught a serious preventable illness from an unvaccinated child is pretty bad. People are literally dying and diseases that had been reduced to being very rare are coming back because of this, it needs to be fought with education and legal moves to make it harder for parents to deny their children necessary vaccinations.

Doesn't sound like Kat Von D is a prime concern though

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