Beerjeezus Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Hermione said: If you're going to judge Billie for not calling out or reacting to Morrissey's views I think whether he knew about them is pretty relevant. That we don't know either way is extremely relevant in my eyes - without knowing I'll withhold judgement. I'm not judging him - since the beginning I've been saying that it's only our own fault if we chose to buy into his public image. However, if Billie knew about it or didn't is completely irrelevant to my opinion about Morrissey. Plus we can never know for sure if he knew it or not. 47 minutes ago, amberwhite said: Serious question: will the people who are offended/calling out Billie for working with Morrissey still support Billie/Green Day? Would that make them hypocrites? How far down the line does guilt by association go? Two people already left the forum so i think you can rest assured they weren't being hypocritical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteTim Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Who left the board?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 13 minutes ago, WhiteTim said: Who left the board?? Miyu Yan and Billie Hoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billie Joes Eyelids Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 People are still arguing in this thread? Really? Haven’t all points been made about 3 times now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaCharlatan&Saints Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Holy fucking shit the amount of people on this thread trying to defend blatant casual racism from a man who has time an dtime again said racist vile shit is mind boggling. To those of you who dont think its a problem...just look at what happened in New Zealand and please do keep trying to justify racist crap because it all causes a much larger problem. The people screaming about opinions should be heard of everyone? Sorry the opinions of racists and fucking nazis do not deserve any platform of any kind. Oh and for those saying Nigel Farage and UKIP arent racist youve been living under a fucking rock or are willfully ignorant. Honestly did not expect to see people on here bending over backwards to defend racists comments. Some of you really need to read back over what you wrote and cop the fuck on. On 3/22/2019 at 8:13 PM, Too domb to die said: Wow!, Really?... I thought you were being ironic. He is far from far right... This is a joke.?? I won't comment further as it's clear you'll continue with leftist rhetoric . Also Nigel Farage isn't a " Far Right " figure. Yes he is. If you dont see that you are ignorant as hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 hours ago, neverdone2000 said: People are still arguing in this thread? Really? Haven’t all points been made about 3 times now? I will stop opposing racism when racism gets eradicated - seems we're far from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan86 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 So how’s world war 3 going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Alan86 said: So how’s world war 3 going? Imagine what would happen if Billie actually did something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Think everyone’s opinions are pretty set on this one. No point having the same argument over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian's Inferno! Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I'm sorry but when you don't allow the far-right to have free speech, that just ends badly for everybody. They become violent in a desperate attempt to be heard. Nobody's saying you need to agree or even listen to these racist opinions. But when you have these ideas that it's ok to punch a "nazi", then that just results in violence, you give racists reasons to belief the things they belief and you create a world where people call anybody they disagree with a nazi and just attack anybody they disagree with. It's never good to be on the far side of any issue because you end up becoming the same person as who you're against Nobody here is defending racist comments and if you think that's happening, you're being an idiot. I'm not even gonna say anything else because everything has been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 9 hours ago, EmmaCharlatan&Saints said: The people screaming about opinions should be heard of everyone? The people "screaming" (really?) about opinions were referring to hearing the different opinions of people on GDC in this discussion about Billie working with Morrissey. However how far free speech should go in terms of allowing offensive views to be heard or what constitutes views that are offensive enough that they shouldn't be heard is a matter of opinion and not an absolute. Someone believing looser controls on offensive speech is for the better doesn't mean they agree with offensive views or are defending them. Yeah pretty sure everyone's made their opinions on Billie working with Morrrissey known, but when people pop in to claim everyone who disagreed about anything was saying "racism isn't a problem" when that's nowhere near what anyone has said it does make you want to want to point out that isn't what you said, believe it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 10 hours ago, Christian's Inferno! said: I'm sorry but when you don't allow the far-right to have free speech, that just ends badly for everybody. They become violent in a desperate attempt to be heard. Nobody's saying you need to agree or even listen to these racist opinions. But when you have these ideas that it's ok to punch a "nazi", then that just results in violence, you give racists reasons to belief the things they belief and you create a world where people call anybody they disagree with a nazi and just attack anybody they disagree with. It's never good to be on the far side of any issue because you end up becoming the same person as who you're against Nobody here is defending racist comments and if you think that's happening, you're being an idiot. I'm not even gonna say anything else because everything has been said. Yeah, if nazis can express themselves freely that's where they stop. Like when Hitler talked about mass muder of minorities...oh wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said: Yeah, if nazis can express themselves freely that's where they stop. Like when Hitler talked about mass muder if minorities...oh wait. There's degrees of it though. There isn't an exact clear line of where allowing speech would be more harmful than not allowing it, so it's something that can be debated and that people can have different valid opinions on. Different countries have different laws on it for this reason. One person thinking the line should be in a different place to where another person happens to draw it doesn't mean they're evil or agreeing with what's being said. Is anyone in this thread even saying that Morrissey is a nazi, or that nazi views are cool? This thread is about Billie doing a song with Morrissey, it's getting absurd. Now at the point of judging people for not judging Billie for not judging Morrissey for not judging Nigel Farage. Also like, people do know that "not a far right figure" doesn't mean "great awesome person" right? Believing that someone doesn't fit in the specific political category of "far right" doesn't mean you support them and have no problem with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Hermione said: There's degrees of it though. There isn't an exact clear line of where allowing speech would be more harmful than not allowing it, so it's something that can be debated and that people can have different valid opinions on. Different countries have different laws on it for this reason. One person thinking the line should be in a different place to where another person happens to draw it doesn't mean they're evil or agreeing with what's being said. Ok, it's debatable - I'd like to see any evidence of how giving far right platform decreases its violence. Here's a good resource on right wing extremism and how its becoming more mainstream recently lead to an increase in violence and terrorism: https://www.csis.org/analysis/rise-far-right-extremism-united-states?amp Here's a graph of European far right's election results:as a testament for them having enough of a platform to express themselves: And right-wing violence stats: There doesn't seem to be a decline in right wing violence with the recent increase of rw views in the public debate and politics, but I'd be interested to see what arguments and data are there to support the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I don't even support the opposite, I think the laws we have here are right. But in the US for example laws on speech aren't nearly as strict, and literal Nazi views are allowed to be aired. And people who agree with that in the interest of protecting free speech don't necessarily support offensive views. It's just a difference of opinion on the best approach to deal with it. I don't know that those stats show anything about how the degree of offensive speech allowed affects support for the far right, the amount allowed hasn't changed as far as I know and so it isn't necessarily the reason for the rise in far right parties. I do agree with limiting extremists' platform where possible but whether that's the best way to deal with it in every instance and at what point views are extreme enough that they shouldn't be given a platform aren't absolutes. Basically all I'm saying is if someone in this thread is saying it's better to allow offensive views to be aired (or if Morrissey has said that) it doesn't mean they support the views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Hermione said: I don't know that those stats show anything about how the degree of offensive speech allowed affects support for the far right, the amount allowed hasn't changed as far as I know and so it isn't necessarily the reason for the rise in far right parties. The stats simply illustrate the correlation exists. There's more platform for the far right and there's a rise in far right violence. I'm not saying it's the only cause, but I'd like to know how much more freedom the far right needs to stop killing people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Beerjeezus said: The stats simply illustrate the correlation exists. There's more platform for the far right and there's a rise in far right violence. I'm not saying it's the only cause, but I'd like to know how much more freedom the far right needs to stop killing people. I'm not advocating for them to have more platform so I'm not going to argue about it, I don't know for sure what exactly the best policy for policing hate speech is. I'm only speaking in regard to how Morrissey and people in this thread have been assumed to be supporting or not bothered by offensive views because they're more open to them being allowed to be aired. You don't have to agree with a view to believe someone should be allowed to express it, it's two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, Hermione said: You don't have to agree with a view to believe someone should be allowed to express it, it's two different things. I agree and this is the basis of the entire argument. Do we silence people we disagree with? Imo no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 54 minutes ago, Hermione said: I'm not advocating for them to have more platform so I'm not going to argue about it, I don't know for sure what exactly the best policy for policing hate speech is. I'm only speaking in regard to how Morrissey and people in this thread have been assumed to be supporting or not bothered by offensive views because they're more open to them being allowed to be aired. You don't have to agree with a view to believe someone should be allowed to express it, it's two different things. I don't think any assumptions have been made, several people explicitly said they're not bothered by those views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertine Angel Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I'd like to point out that 1) Hitler actually said in Mein Kampf that the only thing that could've stopped them was an immediate violent shutdown of their activities & their victory was assured as soon as people said "let's give them free speech and hear them out"; 2) if you work with a Nazi you are saying "I am OK with my name to be alongside the name of this Nazi" and I cannot see any justification for that; and 3) the whole "we should all come together regardless of opinion" is bollocks because if I were put in a room with Nazis they would literally murder me because that is their entire ideology. Difference of opinion is fine with shit like taxes and public ownership of industry, not the right to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I'm not arguing those points. Just that someone thinking a different approach to the speech part is better, whether it's Billie or someone in this thread, doesn't mean they're a Nazi sympathiser. Morrissey is a Nazi? Even if you think he is that isn't what he's known as/what the general public perception of him is apart from perhaps among a minority of people who've researched a lot about him and dug up all his quotes and come to that conclusion. So I think it's crazy to assume that Billie perceived him as a Nazi and went yeah no problem with Nazis let's work together and judge him on that basis when it's more likely he had a different impression of him than that for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeJennsitized Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 For the record I didn’t “research” Morrissey, my instinctual reaction to this news was “that’s not good” because I’d already heard he was a right wing asshole, that was my general perception as someone who knows barely anything about him or the Smiths. The quotes can be found on the first page of google and on his own website, hardly in depth research for quotes to catch him out. 14 hours ago, Joe. said: I agree and this is the basis of the entire argument. Do we silence people we disagree with? Imo no. It’s not an ice cream flavour Joe, it’s racism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermione Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I still think common sense says that if Billie had perceived Morrissey to be a racist far right Nazi he more likely than not wouldn't have been eager to work with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, DeJennsitized said: It’s not an ice cream flavour Joe, it’s racism Not looking to have this debate again, but it's my view that these views should be challenged, rather than silenced, in order to expose and put them down. Simply silencing these views mean they grow and develop and become something more ugly when they emerge. Brexit is a good example. A considerable amount of the UK had felt abandoned and ignored for decades and the Brexit vote was a response to it. If we end up remaining in the EU I would be concerned about the eventual political repercussions. At this point I'm kinda tired of this debate now. We all agree Morrissey has made racist comments, we all feel differently about a minor collab. I really enjoy The Smiths so maybe I'm too invested in the music, but I don't really know how to feel about this anymore. My view on Morrissey has changed over the course of the debate, but I also think that rightly or wrongly the context of his comments is important. Im not defending him or Billie, but in my opinion it's still important. Doesn't make his comments any less racist tho, so I'm conflicted over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerjeezus Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Hermione said: I still think common sense says that if Billie had perceived Morrissey to be a racist far right Nazi he more likely than not wouldn't have been eager to work with him. Then the question is, would he recognize a racist far right Nazi if there was one right in front of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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