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LGBTQ+ Discussion, Advice, and Questions

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WhiteTim
9 minutes ago, 1039Revolutions said:

Wait a minute, wait a minute.. are you saying that if a heterosexual doesn’t want to identify as LGBT, they are LGBTphobic?? 

Why or how would a hetro be indentified as LGBT?

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Beerjeezus
5 minutes ago, 1039Revolutions said:

Wait a minute, wait a minute.. are you saying that if a heterosexual doesn’t want to identify as LGBT, they are LGBTphobic?? 

Lol what makes you think that's what I'm saying?

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Göta
1 hour ago, 1039Revolutions said:

Oh, you will within the next year or 2.. it’s just starting now. That’s why I explained it as the most blatant attack on homosexuality in modern history.. because homosexuals use it on themselves. Let me ask you this.. when you’re on social media, and an organization posts something non-biased about anything ‘LGBT’ .. how many of the comments are positive? I challenge you to observe that! Something as simple as a company changing their logo to the rainbow colours during ‘pride’ time is now inciting hatred amongst people! How is that a good thing? 

You wouldn’t.. it’s solely about focusing on indications and where things are ‘going’.

Disagreeing with Gender Indentity and sexual preference being placed in the same category is not ‘transphobia’. You don’t think the way I do. All I think about is mental health, and a 12 year old who is starting to discover who they are and what they like are going to be more likely to repress these types of things when they are categorized with other things. (Repression is the number 1 cause of real depression/anxiety) The ‘dangerous’ part is the deception that gender identity and sexuality have anything to do with each other, when they don’t, and associating them is going to veer a lot of young people away from ever coming out! 

The biggest «attack on homosexuality» (or on other non-straight sexualities) as I view it, comes from straight people who keep discriminating people who differs from the norm, not from which letters we use to refer to our group or which groups we choose to include under our umbrella.

That also goes for the 12 year olds you are talking about. I'm quite sure that closeted people are more worried about the possible discrimination/rejection they'll get from the straight majority rather than about the possibility of being associated with another group. 

As for the rainbow flag, many people get mad when organisations changes their logos during pride while they do nothing to support lgbtqi+ matters the other 11 months of the year. That's the only argument I've seen myself. In most cases however, my impression is that most people are happy to see this kind of suppport and I've never really seen much of the hatred you're describing, with the exception of a few comments here and there. Feel free to mention sources.

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Hermione
6 hours ago, 1039Revolutions said:

Whether or not people are seeking to combine them, the term ‘LGBTQ’ is clearly creating the association, and the problem with associating completely different things like orientation and gender identity is it will ‘undoubtedly’ cause more people who may not want to be associated with ‘either’ side to repress themselves!

Just to try to be more clear here.. let me use an example..

If you are a young person, and you are trying to decide whether you are a liberal or conservative.. and you strongly believe that we should tax the rich more (a liberal view), BUT you appose abortion in ‘any’ term (a conservative view).. you’d find it a bad thing to have to be associated with a group called ‘the Tax Rich and Get Abortion’ ‘TRGA’ .. Wouldn’t you? Maybe YOU wouldn’t, but a lot of people would, and a lot of people would chose to repress their views and feelings because of things like this! 

Again.. you’re not understanding my point at all. Hopefully my most recent post will clear this up for you! 

I don't think these are good comparisons. People with the viewpoints you describe get called the word "conservative" and painted as the same thing, that's true. But LGBT+ isn't one word, it's a list of different words describing a list of different identities, and they aren't all lumped in as the same thing.

Furthermore the reason for someone not wanting to be associated with viewpoints they consider wrong is because they think the viewpoints are wrong/bad. I can't think of a reason for not wanting to be mentioned with trans people (again, not even called trans but just mentioned together because people who aren't straight and/or cis can face some similar issues) other than if you think there's something wrong with being trans.

And you still haven't explained how being mentioned in the same breath as trans people "represses" gay people. Does mentioning bisexual people repress gay people? Does mentioning gay people repress trans people? Why are you making out that "trans" is a negative label in relation to a gay person, but "gay" isn't a negative label in relation to a trans person? The idea is people can work out a sexual identity for themselves and a gender identity for themselves and none of them should be seen negatively.

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Billie Hoe
8 minutes ago, WhiteTim said:

Why or how would a hetro be indentified as LGBT?

Transgender women and men can be heterosexual if they're attracted to the opposite gender.

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WhiteTim
Just now, Billie Hoe said:

Transgender women and men can be heterosexual if they're attracted to the opposite gender.

Good point didn’t think of that 

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Hermione
5 hours ago, Göta said:

The biggest «attack on homosexuality» (or on other non-straight sexualities) as I view it, comes from straight people who keep discriminating people who differs from the norm, not from which letters we use to refer to our group or which groups we choose to include under our umbrella.

That also goes for the 12 year olds you are talking about. I'm quite sure that closeted people are more worried about the possible discrimination/rejection they'll get from the straight majority rather than about the possibility of being associated with another group. 

As for the rainbow flag, many people get mad when organisations changes their logos during pride while they do nothing to support lgbtqi+ matters the other 11 months of the year. That's the only argument I've seen myself. In most cases however, my impression is that most people are happy to see this kind of suppport and I've never really seen much of the hatred you're describing, with the exception of a few comments here and there. Feel free to mention sources.

Exactly, it's straight people and a heteronormative society that causes a problem for gay people. It also happens to be the same people and same society that causes a problem for trans people and others who don't identify as straight or cis. We live in a society that is heteronormative and cisnormative. That is the reason it's relevant to talk about lgbt+ people together as well as separately.

A 12 year old who's gay is under pressure to stay in the closet because of the idea that it's wrong to be gay and right to be straight, enforced by straight people. Not because they might be associated with being trans (which like, they won't be because there's a clear difference between being gay and being trans). Being gay was already considered wrong on its own by straight society, it wasn't and isn't considered wrong because of a link to trans people.

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o_O
3 hours ago, WhiteTim said:

Why or how would a hetro be indentified as LGBT?

also asexuals could be hetero romantic in nature. just like people in the grey ace spectrum could be biromantic or polyromantic. 

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Sarcasm
3 minutes ago, o_O said:

people in the grey ace spectrum could be biromantic or polyromantic. 

If anyone gets offended when I use wrong pronouns, I plead ignorance, and ignorance is fucking bliss. It's too much to learn

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o_O
20 minutes ago, Sarcasm said:

If anyone gets offended when I use wrong pronouns, I plead ignorance, and ignorance is fucking bliss. It's too much to learn

grey ace is pretty much the asexual spectrum. Biromantic would be romantic (non sexual) attraction to both males and females in a general sense while maintaining no sexual feeling. 

but i understand there's a few things i don't understand since the umbrella is huge. 

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DeJennsitized
47 minutes ago, Sarcasm said:

If anyone gets offended when I use wrong pronouns, I plead ignorance, and ignorance is fucking bliss. It's too much to learn

Using the wrong pronouns as an honest mistake is something most people understand. It’s misgendering on purpose that’s the problem. I think as long as you’re willing to learn and be accommodating, the vast majority of LGBT+ people will appreciate it. 

Ignorance is why racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia was widespread and normal for so long (and still is in places). People have to be open to change for change to happen. 

Regarding Ace in the acronym, LGBTQ+ is pretty all encompassing - I see the acronym as an umbrella term and not just representative of the words the letters stand for. People generally know what you mean when you say LGBT so makes sense to refer to that. 

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Sarcasm
6 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Using the wrong pronouns as an honest mistake is something most people understand. It’s misgendering on purpose that’s the problem. I think as long as you’re willing to learn and be accommodating, the vast majority of LGBT+ people will appreciate it. 

Ignorance is why racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia was widespread and normal for so long (and still is in places). People have to be open to change for change to happen. 

Regarding Ace in the acronym, LGBTQ+ is pretty all encompassing - I see the acronym as an umbrella term and not just representative of the words the letters stand for. People generally know what you mean when you say LGBT so makes sense to refer to that. 

I got a trans brother, I just call him he

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WhiteTim
1 hour ago, Sarcasm said:

If anyone gets offended when I use wrong pronouns, I plead ignorance, and ignorance is fucking bliss. It's too much to learn

I'm the same way I tried to keep up but too many groups and such I just say good for you I personally don't care what people identify as just as long you're not harming children or harming others against their will people should be free to do whatever they want and be left alone and not bullied cause they may be something you may not be or agree with we're all people we all bleed etc 

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Emilie

Personally this page has comforted me because the LGBT+ groups I know in real life are nowhere near as dramatic or arrogant as Mr High IQ here

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1039Revolutions
5 hours ago, DeJennsitized said:

The only LGB+ people who don’t want the T to be associated with them are transphobic, period. The LGBT+ label is for anyone who feel that label belongs to them, who feel unaccepted/at risk of hate crime in wider society and who wish to find like-minded people who push for change and acceptance. 

This has to be one of the most absurd comments I’ve ever read. To say that a homosexual who isn’t trans, and doesn’t want to identify as a trans person is transphobic is beyond my comprehension. That’s like saying if you don’t indentify as a Vegetarian you hate vegetarians! Do you really think Vegetarians would appreciate the ‘LGBT community’ all of a sudden advertises as the ‘LGBTV Community’?

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Billie Hoe
1 minute ago, 1039Revolutions said:

This has to be one of the most absurd comments I’ve ever read. To say that a homosexual who isn’t trans, and doesn’t want to identify as a trans person is transphobic is beyond my comprehension. That’s like saying if you don’t indentify as a Vegetarian you hate vegetarians! Do you really think Vegetarians would appreciate the ‘LGBT community’ all of a sudden advertises as the ‘LGBTV Community’?

Hmm, for someone taking an advanced psychology class, you seem pretty dumb. Or are you willfully misunderstanding her posts?

Let me explain it to you in simple terms so maybe you will understand it. LGBT is an umbrella term. You're not necessarily all at once. Someone can be a lesbian, but not bi or trans and identify with the term LGBT if they want to. Someone can be trans but not be gay or lesbian or bisexual, they'll still be LGBT. Someone can be bisexual but not gay or lesbian or transgender (which is something different, in case you didn't know!) and still be LGBT. Yes, technically sexual attraction and gender identity are something different, but nobody gives a shit, plus often they actually do go hand in hand.

You're not automatically transphobic because you're cis, and that's not even what she said. You would know if you had any reading comprehension and weren't just in this thread to broadcast your shitty opinions and fabricate drama. You're transphobic because of how vehemently you're trying to exclude transgender people from a community they most definitely belong in. 

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Hermione
24 minutes ago, 1039Revolutions said:

This has to be one of the most absurd comments I’ve ever read. To say that a homosexual who isn’t trans, and doesn’t want to identify as a trans person is transphobic is beyond my comprehension. That’s like saying if you don’t indentify as a Vegetarian you hate vegetarians! Do you really think Vegetarians would appreciate the ‘LGBT community’ all of a sudden advertises as the ‘LGBTV Community’?

Calling someone LGBT isn't calling them trans. It's calling them whatever they identify with that's included in the acronym. In the case of a gay person it's calling them gay. You're fundamentally wrong in thinking that calling someone LGBT is calling them every one of the things on that list.

Can you explain why you're only complaining about gay people being "identified as" trans and not anyone else on the LGBT+ list being "identified as" different things (for example a trans person being "identifed as" gay or a lesbian being "identified as" bisexual according to your logic)? Why are you singling out trans as if it's a bad thing?

 

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1039Revolutions

We are talking about ‘association’ here people! I’m well aware that if you’re a homosexual, you don’t have to identify as ‘Trans’ but what the term ‘LGBT’ has done has associated homosexuality and gender identity (which are two completely different things) and it’s not fair for both homosexuals, or trans people to be ‘associated’

If you are a homosexual, you are automatically ‘identifed’ as LGBT to the average person. If you said to someone ‘Yeah, I’m gay, but I’m not LGBT’ they would look at you like you were crazy. THAT’S what I’m trying to say here.

From the perspective of a 12 year old boy, if you are dealing with homosexual feelings (which I’m sure is hard enough) you know have to deal with being associated as a Trans person, whether you are trans or not. And Vice Versa for trans people, who will be likely assumed homosexual. It has just created mass confusion in an already extremely confusing and hard situation.. and will likely drive more young people to say ‘to hell with it, I’m just going to repress these feelings because it’s not worth it’ .. and that is REALLY bad for society.

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WhiteTim
8 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Calling someone LGBT isn't calling them trans. It's calling them whatever they identify with that's included in the acronym. In the case of a gay person it's calling them gay. You're fundamentally wrong in thinking that calling someone LGBT is calling them every one of the things on that list.

Can you explain why you're only complaining about gay people being "identified as" trans and not anyone else on the LGBT+ list being "identified as" different things (for example a trans person being "identifed as" gay or a lesbian being "identified as" bisexual according to your logic)? Why are you singling out trans as if it's a bad thing?

Cause they’re transphobic is my guess 

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Hermione
14 minutes ago, 1039Revolutions said:

We are talking about ‘association’ here people! I’m well aware that if you’re a homosexual, you don’t have to identify as ‘Trans’ but what the term ‘LGBT’ has done has associated homosexuality and gender identity (which are two completely different things) and it’s not fair for both homosexuals, or trans people to be ‘associated’

If you are a homosexual, you are automatically ‘identifed’ as LGBT to the average person. If you said to someone ‘Yeah, I’m gay, but I’m not LGBT’ they would look at you like you were crazy. THAT’S what I’m trying to say here.

From the perspective of a 12 year old boy, if you are dealing with homosexual feelings (which I’m sure is hard enough) you know have to deal with being associated as a Trans person, whether you are trans or not. And Vice Versa for trans people, who will be likely assumed homosexual. It has just created mass confusion in an already extremely confusing and hard situation.. and will likely drive more young people to say ‘to hell with it, I’m just going to repress these feelings because it’s not worth it’ .. and that is REALLY bad for society.

To put it another way there's thread on GDC called "Vegetarians and Vegans". Vegetarians post there and vegans post there, nobody is saying they're the same thing or "identifying" the vegetarians as vegans or vice versa. Everyone understands they're two different things in a list. LGBT+ aka lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, other non straight or non cis identities is also understood to be a list of different things. As mentioned the reason they're grouped together is because these groups face similar issues and have fought for rights together, it isn't an attempt to blur sexuality and gender together as one.

There will be people who are confused about the difference between sexual and gender identity whether an acronym that mentions them both exists or not. It really isn't that complicated once it's explained. The solution to people being confused is to spread awareness and information about it, not to get rid of a useful acronym because you think people can't understand that different things can be listed together.

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DeJennsitized
12 minutes ago, 1039Revolutions said:

From the perspective of a 12 year old boy, if you are dealing with homosexual feelings (which I’m sure is hard enough) you know have to deal with being associated as a Trans person, whether you are trans or not. And Vice Versa for trans people, who will be likely assumed homosexual. It has just created mass confusion in an already extremely confusing and hard situation.. and will likely drive more young people to say ‘to hell with it, I’m just going to repress these feelings because it’s not worth it’ .. and that is REALLY bad for society.

What the fuck are you trying to even say here? As has been explained several times, being a member of the LGBT+ community does not mean you’re all of those things as once, and NO ONE assumes you’re all of those things at once (except, apparently, “high IQ” transphobes). Literally no 12 year old boy is thinking “gosh, I know I’m gay but what if people think I’m trans??” 

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Billie Hoe
5 minutes ago, 1039Revolutions said:

From the perspective of a 12 year old boy, if you are dealing with homosexual feelings (which I’m sure is hard enough) you know have to deal with being associated as a Trans person, whether you are trans or not. And Vice Versa for trans people, who will be likely assumed homosexual. It has just created mass confusion in an already extremely confusing and hard situation.. and will likely drive more young people to say ‘to hell with it, I’m just going to repress these feelings because it’s not worth it’ .. and that is REALLY bad for society.

That is... some bullshit. Nobody is going to look at a 12 year old boy who says he's gay and be like "well then, you're trans now", because they don't know what the term LGBT means and I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say... the majority of people know. There is nothing confusing about being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender. The LGBT community as a whole will not change everything about the movement and start excluding transgender people because some dumbass straighties don't know what LGBT means. Lol.

You know what's REALLY bad for society though? The cishet society using "gay" as an insult, making people not want to be associated with it out of fear of embarrassment or discrimination from their family or their peers or society as a whole. Killing transgender people, infringing on their basic human rights by not even letting them to use public bathrooms. Making identifying as transgender be so fucking horrible that people repress their feelings and their true identity to not be killed by people who hate them for no other reason than their own gender identity. 

Gay, lesbian and bisexual people will not start excluding transgender people because transphobes like you say "you're making it really complicated for us and we don't want to associate with you. your life is too hard and we don't want your hard life". You wanna do that, you're fucking pissbaby and there's nothing else to it. Instead of listening to your lecturer who's probably a transphobe too, maybe go out and talk to some actual members of the community and listen.

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