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maryjanewhatsername

2018 - 2019 United States Government Shutdown

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
3 hours ago, fukingcounterstrike said:

What kind of forum is this?

The type I'm not telling you about because you'll troll it.

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fukingcounterstrike
49 minutes ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

The type I'm not telling you about because you'll troll it.

:( but but... 

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
6 hours ago, fukingcounterstrike said:

:( but but... 

It's an NFL forum. And every NFL fan is far right, apparently.

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fukingcounterstrike
2 hours ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

It's an NFL forum. And every NFL fan is far right, apparently.

Well it's certainly not a platform for people to be making statements, that's for damn sure :mad: 

Now let's see some concussions 

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Trotsky
13 hours ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

It's an NFL forum. And every NFL fan is far right, apparently.

 

So much for their boycott. 

Maybe you should remind them that while the NFL did make it a rule that players have to stand for the anthem, they're deliberately refusing to enforce it so they can avoid controversy. 

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WhiteTim

Trump doesn’t even want a wall not really 

I’ll show y’all why 

this man here 

FfFFuQR.jpg

Was prepared to suck a dick for some Evian water for a music festival 

is Trump prepared to suck a dick for the wall? Has he even made an offer to suck a dick for the wall? Nope? Well see he’s not committed to the wall 

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Adorkable

Hey, I think we finally have Trump. You probably heard about this little ditty from this week:

https://splinternews.com/trump-endorses-bible-literacy-classes-another-great-id-1832118433

Trump is supporting bible literacy classes in public school.

The bad news is the separation of church and state goes bye bye. 

The good news is we can stone him for committing adultery.  

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maryjanewhatsername
6 minutes ago, Adorkable said:

 

The good news is we can stone him for committing adultery.  

 Can this start now?

But seriously the separation between church and state is crucial, especially in a country that celebrates differences. If Bible literacy classes become a thing, then what about the Koran? Are we having study classes for this, too? Are we forcing theology classes onto Agnostic/Atheist children? This all just seems so childish and ridiculous. I can't believe he got elected.. 

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Hermione

I mean I don't think it's wrong to study religion in school as an academic subject (ie not teaching kids that it's fact or to believe it, just teaching about what different religions believe and how it's relevant in history and society etc). It honestly seems kind of strange that doesn't happen in the US, religious education lessons are compulsory in all state schools here (whether the school is affiliated with a religion or not) and it seems kind of important given that religion plays a big role in the world. And learning about Christianity and the Bible would be part of that. But something tells me that's not what he's talking about lol.

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Beerjeezus

I think for the purpose of elementary education, it's sufficient to incorporate learning about religion in social sciences or whatever the class that included everything from psychology and law to philosophy and political science was.

As for Bible studies, I remember it was an elective at my elementary school and eventually (read very soon) got cancelled due to lack of interest.

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Adorkable
11 minutes ago, Hermione said:

I mean I don't think it's wrong to study religion in school as an academic subject (ie not teaching kids that it's fact or to believe it, just teaching about what different religions believe and how it's relevant in history and society etc). It honestly seems kind of strange that doesn't happen in the US, religious education lessons are compulsory in all state schools here (whether the school is affiliated with a religion or not) and it seems kind of important given that religion plays a big role in the world. And learning about Christianity and the Bible would be part of that. But something tells me that's not what he's talking about lol.

We do have what you describe in our public schools. It is part of the history curriculum and is taught exactly as you describe. 

However, that is not what he is talking about. He is talking about teaching bible studies. The US constitution does not specifically state that there is a separation of church and state. What it does say is that there will be no law that gives priority to one religion or inhibits someone from worshiping as they wish. I'm paraphrasing it, but essentially it is unlawful to prohibit someone from worshiping in whatever religion they want. By introducing bible studies he is promoting christianity. If he wants to do that, then lawfully he needs to include koran studies, torah studies, book of satan studies, the gospel of the great spaghetti monster, etc. Essentially bible studies is illegal in public schools.

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Hermione
15 minutes ago, Adorkable said:

We do have what you describe in our public schools. It is part of the history curriculum and is taught exactly as you describe. 

However, that is not what he is talking about. He is talking about teaching bible studies. The US constitution does not specifically state that there is a separation of church and state. What it does say is that there will be no law that gives priority to one religion or inhibits someone from worshiping as they wish. I'm paraphrasing it, but essentially it is unlawful to prohibit someone from worshiping in whatever religion they want. By introducing bible studies he is promoting christianity. If he wants to do that, then lawfully he needs to include koran studies, torah studies, book of satan studies, the gospel of the great spaghetti monster, etc. Essentially bible studies is illegal in public schools.

Fair enough! I always thought it wasn't taught about at all for some reason.

But yeah he definitely is talking about it from a promoting Christianity pov. It seems like such a dumb move to suggest it, obviously some Christians/conservatives/fans of his would like the idea but separation of church and state is such a big thing that surely he must know he'll be instantly called out for it.

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maryjanewhatsername
3 hours ago, Hermione said:

Fair enough! I always thought it wasn't taught about at all for some reason.

But yeah he definitely is talking about it from a promoting Christianity pov. It seems like such a dumb move to suggest it, obviously some Christians/conservatives/fans of his would like the idea but separation of church and state is such a big thing that surely he must know he'll be instantly called out for it.

Hopefully. But during the election we hoped he would be called out on all of his other shit and his bullshit about the wall, racism, ableism, etc. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this got passed and then had to be reversed because of adverse effects. Shocking how horribly ignorant and stuck in the past some American people are. 

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
3 hours ago, Hermione said:

Fair enough! I always thought it wasn't taught about at all for some reason.

But yeah he definitely is talking about it from a promoting Christianity pov. It seems like such a dumb move to suggest it, obviously some Christians/conservatives/fans of his would like the idea but separation of church and state is such a big thing that surely he must know he'll be instantly called out for it.

You must not have been here recently. Separation of church and state just means your priest can only be in one building at a time, but DON'T TOUCH MY GUNS.

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maryjanewhatsername
1 minute ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

You must not have been here recently. Separation of church and state just means your priest can only be in one building at a time, but DON'T TOUCH MY GUNS.

*banjo playing in the background* :lol: I felt this in my soul living in a state of rednecks with big ass "Yee-Yee" trucks and cans of Copenhagen in their fucking Wranglers. :lol: Jesus, beer, and guns and keep them illegals out is their definite calling card. Watch out for the confederate flag as well. :lol:

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Bully Hoe

Religion should stay out of schools. Throughout all my years in school we had been separated into confessions. Catholic people went to catholic religion class, protestant people went to protestant religion class and muslims or people without religion learnt about ethics in the mean time and I always hated it because they actually did some pretty interesting stuff while I had to learn prayers by heart or some shit. 

My family is from Poland and my parents are super catholic and even they don't think religion belongs in school, because when they were young they simply had extra bible classes in a church / convent in the afternoons. What you need is social studies and politics to get an understanding for it, but religion class is usually bullshit in my experience. 

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Hermione

It was quite good at my (not religiously affiliated) school, you learnt about the basics of the major religions and later on it was more about ethics (like you'd write about the Christian take on something, the Muslim take on something and give your own opinion). Come to think of it I think it is called "philosophy and ethics" at my nephew's school now, still includes religion but probably a better approach. Preaching religion in school is bad but I do think it's important to learn about them.

5 hours ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

You must not have been here recently. Separation of church and state just means your priest can only be in one building at a time, but DON'T TOUCH MY GUNS.

Yeah but it's still like "let's have bible study in school", instantly countered with "we have separation of church and state". He makes it so easy to call him out.

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AlissaGoesRAWR

Let’s be real, if someone only suggested something like Koran studies he and his followers would be throwing a temper tantrum. And if you wouldn’t react the same to that as Bible studies, you’re probably not suggesting it in an unbiased, constitutional way. 

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Trotsky

I don't think there is anything wrong with objective study of religion in a school's curriculum in theory, but in practice, especially in the United States where Christianity still wields enormous influence over politics, such classes in public schools would not be objective, they would be indoctrination classes. 

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o_O
On 1/29/2019 at 5:05 PM, Hermione said:

I mean I don't think it's wrong to study religion in school as an academic subject (ie not teaching kids that it's fact or to believe it, just teaching about what different religions believe and how it's relevant in history and society etc). It honestly seems kind of strange that doesn't happen in the US, religious education lessons are compulsory in all state schools here (whether the school is affiliated with a religion or not) and it seems kind of important given that religion plays a big role in the world. And learning about Christianity and the Bible would be part of that. But something tells me that's not what he's talking about lol.

that i can get behind integrate it with a world history course. but not be biased i.e. a hardcore Christian preaching in a class that is like half Muslim or Jewish. 

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
On 1/30/2019 at 2:35 PM, Trotsky said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with objective study of religion in a school's curriculum in theory, but in practice, especially in the United States where Christianity still wields enormous influence over politics, such classes in public schools would not be objective, they would be indoctrination classes. 

I disagree, and this is coming from someone who went to high school in northern Florida (the redneck part). One of the assigned readings throughout the course of the year, was the Book of Job. He addressed it right up front by saying that this is not a religious study, it's a book with a theme that fits into the broader topic we were spending that quarter on. There would be no discussion about the right or wrong of it, just the literary value of it, and anyone who wanted to proselytize or use it to attack religion was in the wrong class. He also handed out photocopies of the pages we needed from the Bible because, in his words, he wasn't going to make us buy a Bible, he wasn't going to buy Bibles for us, and he had no interest in trying to get the state board to buy Bibles for him.

And to his credit, it was one of the best discussions we had all year. A couple people ended up being shut down because they drifted a little too far, but no fireworks and no indoctrinations.

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Adorkable
1 hour ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

I disagree, and this is coming from someone who went to high school in northern Florida (the redneck part). One of the assigned readings throughout the course of the year, was the Book of Job. He addressed it right up front by saying that this is not a religious study, it's a book with a theme that fits into the broader topic we were spending that quarter on. There would be no discussion about the right or wrong of it, just the literary value of it, and anyone who wanted to proselytize or use it to attack religion was in the wrong class. He also handed out photocopies of the pages we needed from the Bible because, in his words, he wasn't going to make us buy a Bible, he wasn't going to buy Bibles for us, and he had no interest in trying to get the state board to buy Bibles for him.

And to his credit, it was one of the best discussions we had all year. A couple people ended up being shut down because they drifted a little too far, but no fireworks and no indoctrinations.

But what you describe is very different than what is being proposed. It sounds like you read the Book of Job in a literature class. My girls had the study of different religions in history. It was taught as a look at how different religions affect our history but nothing beyond that. What is being proposed is not a historical look or literature look at the bible, but actual bible class. Like Sunday school in regular school 

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AlissaGoesRAWR
20 minutes ago, Adorkable said:

But what you describe is very different than what is being proposed. It sounds like you read the Book of Job in a literature class. My girls had the study of different religions in history. It was taught as a look at how different religions affect our history but nothing beyond that. What is being proposed is not a historical look or literature look at the bible, but actual bible class. Like Sunday school in regular school 

The thing is, the laws that are being proposed in states aren't actually proposing that. They're largely promoting literacy/history courses that (as you say) are something that has already been ruled constitutional anyway. It's just a stunt. This idea that we're "bringing back" the Bible is ridiculous because such classes were never outlawed in the first place.

Trump's tweet was based on Fox coverage like this:

https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/growing-number-of-states-pushing-bible-literacy-classes-in-public-schools

This editorial actually sums it up pretty well:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/01/30/president-trump-just-tweeted-support-bible-courses-its-already-legal-teach-about-bible/

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Adorkable
23 minutes ago, AlissaGoesRAWR said:

The thing is, the laws that are being proposed in states aren't actually proposing that. They're largely promoting literacy/history courses that (as you say) are something that has already been ruled constitutional anyway. It's just a stunt. This idea that we're "bringing back" the Bible is ridiculous because such classes were never outlawed in the first place.

Trump's tweet was based on Fox coverage like this:

https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/growing-number-of-states-pushing-bible-literacy-classes-in-public-schools

This editorial actually sums it up pretty well:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/01/30/president-trump-just-tweeted-support-bible-courses-its-already-legal-teach-about-bible/

I can't read the Washington Post article because I'm not paying for it. However, I don't think the first article quite reads the way you described. It does talk about approaching it from a literature and history standpoint. But it also states that the proposed course is actually focused on the bible.  There is a big difference between teaching bible literacy and teaching how different religions affected history. The way they are describing it, it can easily turn into a scripture class, depending on the teacher.

However, I do agree that Trump misunderstood it and blew it out of proportion as usual. This is funny, one of Trumps former pastors came out and said that he never came to church.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/former-marble-collegiate-pastor-says-he-never-saw-trump-at-church_us_5c51f51ee4b04f8645c728a8

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AlissaGoesRAWR
23 minutes ago, Adorkable said:

I can't read the Washington Post article because I'm not paying for it. However, I don't think the first article quite reads the way you described. It does talk about approaching it from a literature and history standpoint. But it also states that the proposed course is actually focused on the bible.  There is a big difference between teaching bible literacy and teaching how different religions affected history. The way they are describing it, it can easily turn into a scripture class, depending on the teacher.

However, I do agree that Trump misunderstood it and blew it out of proportion as usual. This is funny, one of Trumps former pastors came out and said that he never came to church.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/former-marble-collegiate-pastor-says-he-never-saw-trump-at-church_us_5c51f51ee4b04f8645c728a8

Of course it doesn't read that way — it's Fox News, and they're interpreting the proposals in a way that panders to people like Trump.

Yes, the courses would be narrower than a world religions class, which is why it's drawing criticism, but I really don't think any lawmaker would be stupid enough to introduce a bill that specifically indoctrinates students in a religion. If you look at the bill text in North Dakota, for example, it's called "Bible studies," lumped in with sections of the law already pertaining to social studies. They also have something called "North Dakota studies." I think "studies" is a term that's being taken out of context both by anti-religious people who are offended and Bible-thumpers who are happy about us "returning to our roots."

The Florida bill and the Indiana bill specifically say the instruction must be objective and Indiana also describes world religion courses.

Again, not saying I agree with this idea being so emphasized because, as @Tre's Busted Drumkit said, I think it would inevitably turn into indoctrination in some cases because our country is so heavily biased toward Christian religions. And just because the saw says instruction must be objective doesn't mean the law would be followed. The bills are being pushed by religious groups that obviously have more than history and literacy as a goal. But it's a bit more complicated than just saying it's flat-out unconstitutional because it involves religion.

(Also, you can always use a browser's incognito mode to get past a paywall, as much as it pains me to say it because it's why I'll be unemployed someday.)

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