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maryjanewhatsername

2018 - 2019 United States Government Shutdown

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Brooklyn Baby
16 hours ago, Billie Hoe said:

Having conversations with Trump supporters 

It's kind of ludicrous that you made the jump of assuming that just because I find it hard to care about a problem that was exclusively created by someone's poor planning, I don't care about people in general :lol: 

FYI, the average government employee makes $51k/yr. There are plenty who fall beneath this line, but even $35k is plenty of money to work with. Since we're flaunting our poor person cred in here, I'll say that when I made $27k/yr in New York State, I still paid rent on my apartment, car payment, other bills, food, health insurance, etc., and saved up money to live on when I eventually left my job for school and was unemployed for several months. 

ETA: To address John's point - at the time I mentioned above, I could have been living paycheck to paycheck - if I'd chosen to live that kind of lifestyle. I chose not to. I escaped the paycheck to paycheck crap by buying the cheapest food/household supplies/whatever, furnishing my postage stamp sized apartment with whatever free shit I could find on Craigslist, buying clothes for my family from second-hand stores, etc. I mean, I could be living paycheck to paycheck right now on $60k/yr if I wanted to, but I don't want to. So I'm not. Living paycheck to paycheck is a choice more often than it is not. On $51k a year, I call bullshit on "THEY HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK." 

There will always be some sad story about whatever that you'll throw at me to make it seem like my attitude is rude and unreasonable, but the fact is that if I could make it work, a lot of people could make it work. They just choose not to. 

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maryjanewhatsername
1 minute ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

It's kind of ludicrous that you made the jump of assuming that just because I find it hard to care about a problem that was exclusively created by someone's poor planning, I don't care about people in general :lol: 

FYI, the average government employee makes $51k/yr. There are plenty who fall beneath this line, but even $35k is plenty of money to work with. Since we're flaunting our poor person cred in here, I'll say that when I made $27k/yr in New York State, I still paid rent on my apartment, car payment, other bills, food, health insurance, etc., and saved up money to live on when I eventually left my job for school and was unemployed for several months. 

 

Everyone's bills are different and each state pays its workers differently. They also tax them differently and everyone's situation is different. So I think assuming that 35k a year is "plenty of money (to save some up)" is ignorant and uninformed. Everyone's situation is different. 

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Brooklyn Baby
1 minute ago, maryjanewhatsername said:

Everyone's bills are different and each state pays its workers differently. They also tax them differently and everyone's situation is different. So I think assuming that 35k a year is "plenty of money (to save some up)" is ignorant and uninformed. Everyone's situation is different. 

I live in one of the highest taxed states in the nation. I'm aware of differences between states :lol:

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maryjanewhatsername
33 minutes ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

I live in one of the highest taxed states in the nation. I'm aware of differences between states :lol:

Are you also aware that everyone's financials are different? That not everyone is as fortunate? $35K/year doesn't guarentee anything for the average person. I like what @Trotsky said about medical emergencies:

 

34 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

 

Especially considering that one health emergency in America can financially ruin a person. And that's not just those without health insurance, if you have "good" health insurance but you end up with a $30,000 hospital bill, you're probably still on the hook for some $3000 at best. Even insured people can't afford health care.

Explains part of the average American's problem pretty well. 

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Brooklyn Baby

Okay, you guys are never going to even entertain the premise that people should live well within their means and prepare for financial disasters appropriately, so I have nothing more to say. It's like arguing with a brick wall. 

SPEAKING OF WALLS AND FINANCES THO... how about that deal Trump proposed yesterday? 

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
1 hour ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

SPEAKING OF WALLS AND FINANCES THO... how about that deal Trump proposed yesterday? 

"If you let me build my stupid wall, I promise to wait three years to deport all of your Dreamers."

Pass.

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WhiteTim

Nevermind not worth it

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lizziebix
2 hours ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

Okay, you guys are never going to even entertain the premise that people should live well within their means and prepare for financial disasters appropriately, so I have nothing more to say. It's like arguing with a brick wall. 

SPEAKING OF WALLS AND FINANCES THO... how about that deal Trump proposed yesterday? 

I totally get what you're saying.  When hubby lost his high paying job during the last recession, we had to rebudget everything to live on only my salary.  We dropped a lot of non-essential items that we didn't need but liked having - movie channels on cable, shopping at regular stores vs outlets and dollar stores, clipping lots and lots of coupons.  It was hard and painful but for the 18 months he was unemployed we survived and never had to touch any of our savings.  We weren't able to save more but we made it work.

As you said, it takes hard work.  I've never been one to live above my salary and have budgeted accordingly.  But the truth is not everyone is like me.  As the credit card debt in the U.S. shows.  But as the major bread winner in our household now, if I were to lose my job, it would be difficult to pay our bills on just hubby's salary (which btw...we never added back any of those items we deleted 6 years ago) and would probably have to use our savings to just get by.

I also remember when it happened that a friend didn't understand why I was so worried.  She felt that since I had a large savings nest egg that I could just go on living as I had.  She never had a savings plan and spent all her extra money on travel.  Which sounds wonderful but not realistic to me.  She just didn't understand the importance of having money saved for emergencies or for our eventual retirement.  I just don't know how to live that way.

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Billie Hoe

Some people are maybe fortunate enough to make ends meet with their paycheck and live a comfortable life while limiting themselves somewhat so they can save up money in case their government wants to hold them hostage in order to force political opponents to do their bidding by trying to use whatever empathy they may have against them to make them cave. However, there are a selected number of people in the States who live in different circumstances despite possibly earning the same amount as those earlier mentioned fortunated people, possibly because they have debt, or unexpected expenses due to a broken washing machine or car, I don't know, a broken ankle, which will tear a hole into their saving accounts because they have insufficient health insurance, as so many people in the USA do. Or have chronic illnesses or have family members who do, that aren't covered by their insurances and which are stressing them out. Or have to pay a mortgage on top of their student loan debt. It's not like they collectively have a spending problem and have closests full of expensive fur coats.

Apart from this, no person on this earth, especially not on a first world country, should be forced to work and not be compensated for their labor. This entire phenomenon of the US government forcing its workers to work for free while the president who made the choice still gets paid and people actually blaming the workers for their shitty predicament is fucking beyond me. The fact that this is the reality for some people is more depressing than anything else, if you actually think about it. It's inhumane, it's cruel and it's not what should happen in a free and civilized country.

This is exactly what I meant with the picture I posted. It's fucking frustrating to talk to Trump supporters, because they will justify any of his actions as long as they're not being the ones getting screwed by them and still think they're the ones in the right. Because how will you explain to a person that they should care about those less privileged than them? Why does this need to be explained and debated? It's, like you said, like talking against a damn brick wall.

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maryjanewhatsername
58 minutes ago, Billie Hoe said:

Some people are maybe fortunate enough to make ends meet with their paycheck and live a comfortable life while limiting themselves somewhat so they can save up money in case their government wants to hold them hostage in order to force political opponents to do their bidding by trying to use whatever empathy they may have against them to make them cave. However, there are a selected number of people in the States who live in different circumstances despite possibly earning the same amount as those earlier mentioned fortunated people, possibly because they have debt, or unexpected expenses due to a broken washing machine or car, I don't know, a broken ankle, which will tear a hole into their saving accounts because they have insufficient health insurance, as so many people in the USA do. Or have chronic illnesses or have family members who do, that aren't covered by their insurances and which are stressing them out. Or have to pay a mortgage on top of their student loan debt. It's not like they collectively have a spending problem and have closests full of expensive fur coats.

Apart from this, no person on this earth, especially not on a first world country, should be forced to work and not be compensated for their labor. This entire phenomenon of the US government forcing its workers to work for free while the president who made the choice still gets paid and people actually blaming the workers for their shitty predicament is fucking beyond me. The fact that this is the reality for some people is more depressing than anything else, if you actually think about it. It's inhumane, it's cruel and it's not what should happen in a free and civilized country.

This is exactly what I meant with the picture I posted. It's fucking frustrating to talk to Trump supporters, because they will justify any of his actions as long as they're not being the ones getting screwed by them and still think they're the ones in the right. Because how will you explain to a person that they should care about those less privileged than them? Why does this need to be explained and debated? It's, like you said, like talking against a damn brick wall.

This is why I love you! Well said, @Billie Hoe

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
1 hour ago, Billie Hoe said:

This entire phenomenon of the US government forcing its workers to work for free while the president who made the choice still gets paid

Actually, Trump doesn't take a salary.

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Billie Hoe
1 minute ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

Actually, Trump doesn't take a salary.

Well, he doesn't really need to, does he? since he's a billionaire and is getting paid enough from interest alone

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WhiteTim
28 minutes ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

Actually, Trump doesn't take a salary.

He does actually by law he has to take a salary he just “donates” his to government agencies he cuts budgets from 

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Brooklyn Baby
53 minutes ago, Billie Hoe said:

Well, he doesn't really need to, does he? since he's a billionaire and is getting paid enough from interest alone

But it's nice that he doesn't, yeah?

5 hours ago, Tre's Busted Drumkit said:

"If you let me build my stupid wall, I promise to wait three years to deport all of your Dreamers."

Pass.

I guess I just don't get why Pelosi, et al are so opposed to throwing $5 billion at the wall, if they're so desperate to re-open the government. $5 billion dollars is literally not even 1% of the federal budget. If the wall is going to fail, wouldn't it make sense for them to let Trump go ahead and do it so they can point and laugh in 2020? I mean, that's what my strategy would be if I were the unfortunate soul going up against Trump. 

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Billie Hoe
4 minutes ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

But it's nice that he doesn't, yeah?

Well... @WhiteTim just says he does get a salary. But yeah, it would be nice if he got nothing, since he's a literal fucking billionaire who will never be able to spend this much money in several lifetimes, and it's not at all comparable to government employees who are not rich beyond reason and have to work two jobs now. 

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Brooklyn Baby
2 minutes ago, Billie Hoe said:

Well... @WhiteTim just says he does get a salary. But yeah, it would be nice if he got nothing, since he's a literal fucking billionaire who will never be able to spend this much money in several lifetimes, and it's not at all comparable to government employees who are not rich beyond reason and have to work two jobs now. 

A salary that he  has donated 100% of to things like the National Park Service, the Small Business Administration, the VA, Health and Human Services, and the Education Department. It's not like he pockets any of it so idk what your gripe is here? Unless you're just butthurt that some people are rich and others aren't and life isn't fair... in which case honey, you're gonna be mad for LIFE. 

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Beerjeezus

I'd prefer if he payed taxes haha

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Billie Hoe

If it were up to me, he would redistribute his wealth and not hoard it like a fat dragon. Being a billionaire is bad enough, being a billionaire and a terrible human being on top of it is worse.

2 minutes ago, Jane Lannister said:

I'd prefer if he payed taxes haha

And not cut funding to agencies in the first place lol

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
24 minutes ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

I guess I just don't get why Pelosi, et al are so opposed to throwing $5 billion at the wall, if they're so desperate to re-open the government. $5 billion dollars is literally not even 1% of the federal budget. If the wall is going to fail, wouldn't it make sense for them to let Trump go ahead and do it so they can point and laugh in 2020? I mean, that's what my strategy would be if I were the unfortunate soul going up against Trump. 

The real world answer is that they're pandering to their base by ensuring that Trump doesn't get a win on one of his biggest campaign promises, and seeking to embarrass Trump in front of his base by making him explain why their will be no wall.

The rationale in my head that makes sense is that a wall is useful in high-density urban areas where someone can go from Mexico to a face in the crowd in 30 seconds flat, but once you get out to the high desert and Rio Grande scrub, a wall doesn't make sense. Not financially, not in terms of return on investment, not in terms of the damage it would do to the environment. Better methods, like sensors, drones, cameras, better staffing at immigration courts and more feet on the ground will create permanent jobs in the area, not temp jobs that will evaporate as soon as the wall is up.

There are other alternatives, too. Trump gets his $5.7B with the express understanding that that's the last of the funds he'll get for new wall construction, with all future funds being diverted towards alternative means of border security and repairs or upgrades to existing sections of wall. There are so f*cking many options out there that reopen the government and address border security, but Trump wants nothing short of a wall and the Democrats don't want him to get it. Frankly, if Lindsey Graham can't get something done across the aisle, no one can. Someone's going to have to blink. Trump making an offer that's being equated to amnesty by Anne Coulter is a sign that he's feeling the heat. I was expecting to see the Democrats crack after that offer, but now I'm feeling like it's Trump who's going to end up with the blacker eye.

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WhiteTim
51 minutes ago, Brooklyn Baby said:

But it's nice that he doesn't, yeah?

I guess I just don't get why Pelosi, et al are so opposed to throwing $5 billion at the wall, if they're so desperate to re-open the government. $5 billion dollars is literally not even 1% of the federal budget. If the wall is going to fail, wouldn't it make sense for them to let Trump go ahead and do it so they can point and laugh in 2020? I mean, that's what my strategy would be if I were the unfortunate soul going up against Trump. 

5 billion is just a down payment for literally 2 miles of the wall they’d still have to come up with the remaining 65 billion to complete this wall

they could easily use the same wall that El Paso has that conservatives always use to prove that walls work which wasn’t as costly as the one Trump wants and the crime and such has gone down a lot since (but then democrats have disputed those findings so who knows) there are cheaper options out there but since Trump has been literally hiring construction companies his sons owns and has ties to also the fact they’ve hired literally no engineers or any architect to design the wall just builders shows they don’t care what effect the wall would have on the environment without engineers to overlook just building shit will be bad when floods come Trump is literally pulling an Obama with his healthcare shit all talk with no actual plan 

49 minutes ago, Billie Hoe said:

If it were up to me, he would redistribute his wealth and not hoard it like a fat dragon. Being a billionaire is bad enough, being a billionaire and a terrible human being on top of it is worse.

And not cut funding to agencies in the first place lol

There’s nothing wrong with being a billionaire (or a millionaire) 

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Emilie

I think the argument about people having savings or not is kind of secondary to the issue that thousands of people are working without pay? That’s just fucked up

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Billie Hoe
58 minutes ago, WhiteTim said:

There’s nothing wrong with being a billionaire (or a millionaire

There is in my opinion, but I realize not everyone is going to agree with that.

I believe billionaires are inherently immoral people, no matter how many charities they support. There is also a huge difference between a multi millionaire who can afford a mansion and a couple of new cars and then continue on living a comfortable life and a multi billionaire who could buy the entire city of Dubai if they wanted to. No person on earth should feel good about themselves having this much money in their bank account while there are people outside of their estates wondering where the next meal is coming from.

Take Elon Musk for example who could solve the Flint Water Crisis all by himself by giving away 1% of his wealth and it wouldnt impact him at all, he would still die a multi billionaire. What he did instead was donate 400k dollars just so the schools have safe water fountains after he got some bad press in order to polish his public image. He could solve the entire problem if he wanted to, it would be the easiest thing to do for him or ANY billionaire, he certainly has the means. but they didnt. Flint is almost 5 years without clean water, people have died. But nobody moves a finger. There are countless other tragedies and problems that could be solved if the billionaires of this world would have one shred of humanity inside them or simply paid their goddamn taxes. Even for selfish reasons, to feel good about themselves or have people thank them. No billionaire in this world made their fortune by just "working hard", at some point there are always people being exploited (usually working or middle class people) just so one person can multiply their net worth.

There is nothing good or honorable or humane about people like that.

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Tre's Busted Drumkit
1 hour ago, Billie Hoe said:

There is in my opinion, but I realize not everyone is going to agree with that.

I believe billionaires are inherently immoral people, no matter how many charities they support. There is also a huge difference between a multi millionaire who can afford a mansion and a couple of new cars and then continue on living a comfortable life and a multi billionaire who could buy the entire city of Dubai if they wanted to. No person on earth should feel good about themselves having this much money in their bank account while there are people outside of their estates wondering where the next meal is coming from.

Take Elon Musk for example who could solve the Flint Water Crisis all by himself by giving away 1% of his wealth and it wouldnt impact him at all, he would still die a multi billionaire. What he did instead was donate 400k dollars just so the schools have safe water fountains after he got some bad press in order to polish his public image. He could solve the entire problem if he wanted to, it would be the easiest thing to do for him or ANY billionaire, he certainly has the means. but they didnt. Flint is almost 5 years without clean water, people have died. But nobody moves a finger. There are countless other tragedies and problems that could be solved if the billionaires of this world would have one shred of humanity inside them or simply paid their goddamn taxes. Even for selfish reasons, to feel good about themselves or have people thank them. No billionaire in this world made their fortune by just "working hard", at some point there are always people being exploited (usually working or middle class people) just so one person can multiply their net worth.

There is nothing good or honorable or humane about people like that.

No, giving away 1% of his wealth might not impact Musk. But you know what would? The next humanitarian crisis that comes knocking on his door looking for 1%. And the next one. And the next one. Either you say yes to everyone and go broke, say no to everyone and be an asshole, say yes to some and no to others and get yourself branded racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever, or you make targeted contributions of an appropriate amount where they will help. There's a great book out there called The Giving Tree. I suggest reading it to gain more of an understanding of why looking to Elon Musk, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos to save the world is an unsustainable, unfair model.

It's the responsibility of governments to take care of their residents. Elon Musk's responsibilities end at paying taxes (which are much too low at the high end of the scale). Anything he chooses to do beyond that is on him, and for the record, $400,000 is a fuckton of money.

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maryjanewhatsername
3 hours ago, Emilie said:

I think the argument about people having savings or not is kind of secondary to the issue that thousands of people are working without pay? That’s just fucked up

AGREEEEEEEEE

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