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Brooklyn Baby
8 hours ago, Billie Hoe said:

They are being brave by opening up, they tell you because they don't want to die, they want help

Exactly. Suicidal ideations are a mental health emergency. The best way to get someone help is to emergently get them to a safe place where they can be evaluated by a mental health professional who can prescribe meds, make sure the person is being watched closely so they can't attempt suicide, etc.

They want to know that someone cares, that they're worth caring about.

Hence, getting them help from someone who is qualified to actually help them. 

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This whole "it's not my problem so I'm not going to bother talking you out of it but I can call you an ambulance for when you do it" is pretty harmful. Yes, dealing with someone who is so troubled can be exhausting for yourself too and it's never your entire responsiblity to save someone, but it can't really be that hard to be kind to your friend, remind them that you love them and guide them into accepting help. You can at least make a little bit of an effort.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying I'd call an ambulance after they've attempted suicide. I'm calling one as soon as they tell me they want to commit suicide - because I care enough to want my friend to get real help. I also care enough about myself to take myself off the hook for dealing with a situation that I'm in no way qualified to deal with. 

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Jane Lannister

The Myth of Sisyphus is the only meaningful argument against suicide I've read tbh.

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Emilie

As someone who’s recovered from long term suicidal ideation, it’s really impossible in the moment to understand how flawed your thinking is. I was constantly told that my wanting to die was a result of mental illness but I didn’t really believe it. And if I could understand it I didn’t believe my illness was ever going to end. I’d been suicidal for 8, 9 years, I couldn’t see it ever changing. We’re told our thoughts are temporary but that’s hard to believe when none of the therapies or treatments work. 

Its true friends and family can’t fix someone’s suicidal thoughts. But having my loved ones talk to me and comfort me did stop me from attempting. So being there emotionally for a suicidal person really can save their life

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I don't care

"I don't wash my hands when I pee. I also like to pee outside when I have the opportunity."

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Sarcasm

This is why I dislike everyone by default

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solongfromthestars

I don't think anyone is suggesting people shouldn't seek emergency help when someone is actively suicidal. I've done it for my partner when I had no other choice and it was the right decision. It's not something to feel guilty about. Just pointing out the value of emotional support when it's an option.

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The Bellie
On 11/16/2018 at 12:20 PM, Trotsky said:

 

It's not difficult to get sufficient nutrition on a vegan diet, it's just that some people make bad choices about what to eat - and the same can be said of some omnivores. There are lots of vegan options for getting the required macro and micronutrients. From my own experiments with veganism in the past and my research, the only thing that can be difficult for a vegan is vitamin B12, but anyone can spend five bucks on a B12 supplement at the nearest pharmacy.

As for how one looks if they've lost weight, that's rather subjective. Weight loss can be problematic when it's to such an extent that it's physically damaging one's health or the result of an eating disorder, but some people would rather be a bit thinner and there's nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with wanting to get bigger. Just being happy about weight loss does not automatically indicate a problem. 

The problem is not being happy about losing weight, the problem is when you're only happy when losing weight, or put it in other terms, when you make your happiness depend on that... Yes theoretically veganism is possible without damaging your health but even though I tried it in a documented way without depriving myself and I wasn't intending to lose weight, it quickly showed up to be quite unhealthy for me. All the theory that's been come up with so far is not really exact on that matter. We're not all able to absorb as good what's in vegetable and animal food, and eating both is the best way to cover all your needs. Unless taking a bunch of vitamins all the time, it's rarely optimal for someone to eat only vegetable food. We're not really meant to be vegetarians. Among the vegan or vegetarian people I've met, most don't look really good, and it's not only about weight. For some it fits to eat this way, but a lot just force themselves to avoid eating some stuff, while it doesn't fit their body needs to do so.

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The Bellie
On 11/16/2018 at 9:48 AM, Göta said:

How can it really be presented morally good, though? I'm just curious.

Being a vegan is not morally better than being willing to eat everything. You put a video of how animals are treated in meat industry, and I'm perfectly aware of how it works, for many years I've been aware, as a former vegan. Of course animals that are raised to be eaten should be treated better, much better, they should be treated with love, not like what happens in this kind of industry. And there should be much less food waste. But there is a lot, a lot of food waste in our modern societies. We are humans because we have the ability to think and care for others including for other species. But that doesn't mean we are made to be vegetarians and that avoiding meat is morally better. It's not, it's a choice, and if you want to convince yourself it's morally better, good for you, but people have the right to make their own choice, and that doesn't mean they're less moral or informed than you. Some people can be healthily vegan, and good for them, I praise people doing things the way they want and say fuck to people who want them to do otherwise. But you speak of meat eaters as being less caring for animals, well I'm sorry but I'm not less caring for animals than when I was a vegan. You are ignorant yourself when you think if people don't become vegan or vegetarian it's because they're not as informed as you. Even with the same information, they can make different choices than you and think differently. I don't like ideas about vegans being always aggressive, I personally don't care what people eat and I certainly don't treat people depending on that, but the way you seem to see omnivores doesn't please me more. I wish everyone would just make their choices and don't be condescending on others.

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Göta
33 minutes ago, The Bellie said:

Being a vegan is not morally better than being willing to eat everything. You put a video of how animals are treated in meat industry, and I'm perfectly aware of how it works, for many years I've been aware, as a former vegan. Of course animals that are raised to be eaten should be treated better, much better, they should be treated with love, not like what happens in this kind of industry. And there should be much less food waste. But there is a lot, a lot of food waste in our modern societies. We are humans because we have the ability to think and care for others including for other species. But that doesn't mean we are made to be vegetarians and that avoiding meat is morally better. It's not, it's a choice, and if you want to convince yourself it's morally better, good for you, but people have the right to make their own choice, and that doesn't mean they're less moral or informed than you. Some people can be healthily vegan, and good for them, I praise people doing things the way they want and say fuck to people who want them to do otherwise. But you speak of meat eaters as being less caring for animals, well I'm sorry but I'm not less caring for animals than when I was a vegan. You are ignorant yourself when you think if people don't become vegan or vegetarian it's because they're not as informed as you. Even with the same information, they can make different choices than you and think differently. I don't like ideas about vegans being always aggressive, I personally don't care what people eat and I certainly don't treat people depending on that, but the way you seem to see omnivores doesn't please me more. I wish everyone would just make their choices and don't be condescending on others.

I was absolutely not being aggressive? I raised a question and did not make any claims. You are putting very many words in my mouth that have no roots in anything I've said.

And I just want to add that I, personally, did not stop eating meat until I was being aware of what happened in the meat industry, so I don't agree with you when you're implying that all meat eaters are just as informed as vegans/vegetarians. Many people are though, and that's fine. I'm only speaking for myself. And of course people are allowed to make their own choices. I haven't really noticed anyone in here saying otherwise.

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Dai.
On 11/19/2018 at 10:28 AM, AlissaGoesRAWR said:

@Billie Hoe and I were basically discussing that if all meat-eating things on the planet stopped eating meat, the species that are hunted wouldn’t have predators anymore. The food chain is a pretty basic concept. But if you use a “conscience” argument and believe only humans should stop eating meat, even studies recapped in articles that are generally pro-no-meat-consumption discuss potential drawbacks, such as the negative repercussions on people in communities that rely on farming as their source only of living (but I guess if you’re not directly impacted by it, a lot of people can just ignore it) or the impact it can have on biodiversity.

To discuss the possibility of all meat-eating animals stopping eating meat doesn't make any sense.... It is only us, humans, who are able to make that decision. The 99% of humans who eat meat but don't hunt for it. If there are tribes or families that have to hunt for their food, that's a bit different. We are mostly against the terrible system that involves the torture and killing of millions of animals every minute of every day.

7 hours ago, Göta said:

I was absolutely not being aggressive? I raised a question and did not make any claims. You are putting very many words in my mouth that have no roots in anything I've said.

And I just want to add that I, personally, did not stop eating meat until I was being aware of what happened in the meat industry, so I don't agree with you when you're implying that all meat eaters are just as informed as vegans/vegetarians. Many people are though, and that's fine. I'm only speaking for myself. And of course people are allowed to make their own choices. I haven't really noticed anyone in here saying otherwise.

I feel like that reply was probably meant for me, I'm the one who posted the video.

All I can say is if you think that contributing to the meat, dairy and eggs industries is equally moral to not contributing to them, I understand why you need to think that way, in order to feel alright about your eating habits, after going vegan "for the animals" and then turning back. One's gotta have their peace of mind one way or another I guess, heh.

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maryjanewhatsername
7 hours ago, Dai. said:

I feel like that reply was probably meant for me, I'm the one who posted the video.

All I can say is if you think that contributing to the meat, dairy and eggs industries is equally moral to not contributing to them, I understand why you need to think that way, in order to feel alright about your eating habits, after going vegan "for the animals" and then turning back. One's gotta have their peace of mind one way or another I guess, heh.

Literally let people live. You can feel this way, you can protest the meat industry, you can do whatever. The meat industry is terrible. That being said, being a vegan doesn't make you a better human being than every other meat sack on this planet that consumes oxygen and expels carbon dioxide. The meat industry needs to be improved, not eliminated.  Expecting a human to make the decision to not eat meat while it has been natural for many years for people and animals to eat meat is simply naive and self-absorbed. Putting yourself on a pedestal because you eat soy doesn't make you a good person - standing up for your beliefs in a respectful manner without putting someone else's way of life down does make you a good person.

I personally do not eat meat because I am allergic to it. My body cannot process complex proteins, unlike normal humans. When I eat meat, I become violently ill. So, my doctor told me to stop eating it. However, he was extremely worried because of the health risks that being vegetarian and being vegan can have. He was worried about 

  • 1. Lack of protein
  • 2. High blood pressure
  • 3. Weight loss
  • 4. Muscle deterioration
  • 5. Messing with my already completely destroyed thyroid

So, meat is a very important part of many creatures diets - this includes humans. But I do agree that animals that are raised for consumption should be treated humanely, since their treatment currently isn't even remotely close to humane. 

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Göta
34 minutes ago, maryjanewhatsername said:

Literally let people live. You can feel this way, you can protest the meat industry, you can do whatever. The meat industry is terrible. That being said, being a vegan doesn't make you a better human being than every other meat sack on this planet that consumes oxygen and expels carbon dioxide. The meat industry needs to be improved, not eliminated.  Expecting a human to make the decision to not eat meat while it has been natural for many years for people and animals to eat meat is simply naive and self-absorbed. Putting yourself on a pedestal because you eat soy doesn't make you a good person - standing up for your beliefs in a respectful manner without putting someone else's way of life down does make you a good person.

I personally do not eat meat because I am allergic to it. My body cannot process complex proteins, unlike normal humans. When I eat meat, I become violently ill. So, my doctor told me to stop eating it. However, he was extremely worried because of the health risks that being vegetarian and being vegan can have. He was worried about 

  • 1. Lack of protein
  • 2. High blood pressure
  • 3. Weight loss
  • 4. Muscle deterioration
  • 5. Messing with my already completely destroyed thyroid

So, meat is a very important part of many creatures diets - this includes humans. But I do agree that animals that are raised for consumption should be treated humanely, since their treatment currently isn't even remotely close to humane. 

Well clearly many vegans will believe that the act of eating/buying meat (and thereby contribute to the meat industry) is less morally good than not doing so, otherwise they would not have been vegan in the first place? This does not mean that vegans look at themselves as better human beings, because there are a lot of other aspects to a human than whether or not they are consuming meat.

Unfortunately, there are many doctors  in general that aren't very well updated on the subject of veganism/vegetarianism. The lack of protein is a myth. High blood pressure is more common among meat eaters than among non-meat-eaters. Weight loss has to do with many other factors than simply the consumtion of meat alone. I want to clearify that I'm now generally speaking, not  aiming at your specific situation.

I feel like all arguments in here that are pro-vegan are immediately listed as aggressive or pompous. That makes the whole discussion kind of meaningless to me. 

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fukingcounterstrike
6 minutes ago, Göta said:

I feel like all arguments in here that are pro-vegan are immediately listed as aggressive or pompous. That makes the whole discussion kind of meaningless to me. 

OMG stop yelling!!!! :o

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The Bellie
On 11/20/2018 at 3:23 PM, Göta said:

I was absolutely not being aggressive? I raised a question and did not make any claims. You are putting very many words in my mouth that have no roots in anything I've said.

And I just want to add that I, personally, did not stop eating meat until I was being aware of what happened in the meat industry, so I don't agree with you when you're implying that all meat eaters are just as informed as vegans/vegetarians. Many people are though, and that's fine. I'm only speaking for myself. And of course people are allowed to make their own choices. I haven't really noticed anyone in here saying otherwise.

My reply was to Dai.

I didn't imply that all omnivores are necessarily as informed as you and I, I meant to say that different people can make different choices while having received the same information. Glad you agree that there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not going to quote every post but no, lack of protein in a vegetable diet isn't really a myth. It depends on people. For most people it's much healthier to get a good half of their proteins from animal food. I've observed around me people who aren't vegetarian but who could visibly be if they wanted to and in a healthy way, while others are vegetarian while it's not really healthy. If you are among the people whose biology and qualitative restriction choices match, good for you... The important is to do what you want but without denying your physical needs.

At the the end of the spectrum, there's my father, who is very fat, was born with a rare, grave illness that could have killed him many years ago, has been through war very young, eats what he wants which is mostly junk food (his restrictive diet would be avoiding everything that's labelled as vegan for instance...) and yet is in very good health. I find him annoying for a lots of things but I must says i'm happy that he doesn't give a shit for what he eats, and it's a big fuck you to all the advice that say that eating this or that is better for your health... while that's bullshit; I agree with you, doctors are often misinformed. One of my boss-lawyers said his cardiologist found him a very bad blood pressure, and he recommends him to eat less, less of this, less of that... I wanted to tell him, it's your way of dealing with stress that is the first factor for your blood pressure. Not what you eat... this man already restricts himself a lot in eating. But unfortunately, I know he'll rather listen to his doctor than me... because it's this type of people, who listens to "authority."

I think it's too early to tell what are really the benefits of a vegan or even vegetarian diet, but I believe, from my only intuition and experience, that in a few years studies about the inconvenient of a vegetable diet will see the light of day. The main inconvenient is not the diet in itself, it's about the psychological state you put yourself into. Socially, you isolate yourself. Even when you have plenty of friends, even if you're always the head of projects, because you're smart and people let you talk first partly because you're able to submit yourself to a restrictive, so called better diet, it's a form of isolation, at least it can be. When I as vegan, it wasn't so much the look at myself that made me change directions, but the sight of all the other vegetarians/ vegans that I met, , which were easier to look at than myself, who were willing to differ from the main system, for right reasons, but were isolating themselves in a way I found unhealthy. It doesn't matter what you fucking eat. Creating a battle around what people eat is misleading. Putting a moral aspect into what people eat is totally misleading, that's what I think, and this discussion hasn't make me think otherwise.

After having been a vegan, I don't want something that isolates me even more from normal people, I don't need it, I'm already too much a weirdo. I eat what I want physically and mentally, I'll still be very different from other people and that's enough. Hell, ironically, after having had very grave eating disorders that were that close to take my life, I'm feeling more normal and healthy than most people I meet when it comes to eating and not being obsessed by your physics. I don't have to give any fucking diet or moral argument when it comes to eating. And when people seem to think they're important when saying such an argument, I just think they're weak and stupid.

On 11/20/2018 at 11:07 PM, Dai. said:

To discuss the possibility of all meat-eating animals stopping eating meat doesn't make any sense.... It is only us, humans, who are able to make that decision. The 99% of humans who eat meat but don't hunt for it. If there are tribes or families that have to hunt for their food, that's a bit different. We are mostly against the terrible system that involves the torture and killing of millions of animals every minute of every day.

I feel like that reply was probably meant for me, I'm the one who posted the video.

All I can say is if you think that contributing to the meat, dairy and eggs industries is equally moral to not contributing to them, I understand why you need to think that way, in order to feel alright about your eating habits, after going vegan "for the animals" and then turning back. One's gotta have their peace of mind one way or another I guess, heh.

So, just because we're able to make the thought that we could, biologically speaking, eat only vegetable food, means we should do so? I think we humans are smart enough to choose with more than that only perspective. And it doesn't fucking matters what you choose, unless you use it to consider yourself in a higher moral place, or that you use it as to isolate yourself, because you feel isolated from the main system anyways, but by giving it a moral and explainable dimension to it, you feel less lost and find other people in your case. As you say, we all need to find our peace of mind. Tell you what, I don't have it more than when I was vegan. Because less place for restrictive or compulsive habits is more place for your natural tendency to drift away from any peace of mind. Except the fact that I'm alive and that's quite a luck. I don't judge you, no one should judge no one, and I hate that discussion and that subject for being so stupidly divisive. But yes, my thought and feeling is that it's at least morally as good to be an omnivore as to be a vegan. I ceased to be vegan because that wasn't the person I was, and to me, veganism is a restrain, I can't call it otherwise. If I was still a vegan, I would've been mad at anyone telling me that...

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Adorkable

I confess that I like meat. I ate lots of turkey on Thursday and it was good.

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maryjanewhatsername
4 hours ago, The Bellie said:

My reply was to Dai.

I didn't imply that all omnivores are necessarily as informed as you and I, I meant to say that different people can make different choices while having received the same information. Glad you agree that there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not going to quote every post but no, lack of protein in a vegetable diet isn't really a myth. It depends on people. For most people it's much healthier to get a good half of their proteins from animal food. I've observed around me people who aren't vegetarian but who could visibly be if they wanted to and in a healthy way, while others are vegetarian while it's not really healthy. If you are among the people whose biology and qualitative restriction choices match, good for you... The important is to do what you want but without denying your physical needs.

At the the end of the spectrum, there's my father, who is very fat, was born with a rare, grave illness that could have killed him many years ago, has been through war very young, eats what he wants which is mostly junk food (his restrictive diet would be avoiding everything that's labelled as vegan for instance...) and yet is in very good health. I find him annoying for a lots of things but I must says i'm happy that he doesn't give a shit for what he eats, and it's a big fuck you to all the advice that say that eating this or that is better for your health... while that's bullshit; I agree with you, doctors are often misinformed. One of my boss-lawyers said his cardiologist found him a very bad blood pressure, and he recommends him to eat less, less of this, less of that... I wanted to tell him, it's your way of dealing with stress that is the first factor for your blood pressure. Not what you eat... this man already restricts himself a lot in eating. But unfortunately, I know he'll rather listen to his doctor than me... because it's this type of people, who listens to "authority."

I think it's too early to tell what are really the benefits of a vegan or even vegetarian diet, but I believe, from my only intuition and experience, that in a few years studies about the inconvenient of a vegetable diet will see the light of day. The main inconvenient is not the diet in itself, it's about the psychological state you put yourself into. Socially, you isolate yourself. Even when you have plenty of friends, even if you're always the head of projects, because you're smart and people let you talk first partly because you're able to submit yourself to a restrictive, so called better diet, it's a form of isolation, at least it can be. When I as vegan, it wasn't so much the look at myself that made me change directions, but the sight of all the other vegetarians/ vegans that I met, , which were easier to look at than myself, who were willing to differ from the main system, for right reasons, but were isolating themselves in a way I found unhealthy. It doesn't matter what you fucking eat. Creating a battle around what people eat is misleading. Putting a moral aspect into what people eat is totally misleading, that's what I think, and this discussion hasn't make me think otherwise.

After having been a vegan, I don't want something that isolates me even more from normal people, I don't need it, I'm already too much a weirdo. I eat what I want physically and mentally, I'll still be very different from other people and that's enough. Hell, ironically, after having had very grave eating disorders that were that close to take my life, I'm feeling more normal and healthy than most people I meet when it comes to eating and not being obsessed by your physics. I don't have to give any fucking diet or moral argument when it comes to eating. And when people seem to think they're important when saying such an argument, I just think they're weak and stupid.

So, just because we're able to make the thought that we could, biologically speaking, eat only vegetable food, means we should do so? I think we humans are smart enough to choose with more than that only perspective. And it doesn't fucking matters what you choose, unless you use it to consider yourself in a higher moral place, or that you use it as to isolate yourself, because you feel isolated from the main system anyways, but by giving it a moral and explainable dimension to it, you feel less lost and find other people in your case. As you say, we all need to find our peace of mind. Tell you what, I don't have it more than when I was vegan. Because less place for restrictive or compulsive habits is more place for your natural tendency to drift away from any peace of mind. Except the fact that I'm alive and that's quite a luck. I don't judge you, no one should judge no one, and I hate that discussion and that subject for being so stupidly divisive. But yes, my thought and feeling is that it's at least morally as good to be an omnivore as to be a vegan. I ceased to be vegan because that wasn't the person I was, and to me, veganism is a restrain, I can't call it otherwise. If I was still a vegan, I would've been mad at anyone telling me that...

Can I just say yes to your whole reply, @The Bellie

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Göta
11 hours ago, The Bellie said:

I find him annoying for a lots of things but I must says i'm happy that he doesn't give a shit for what he eats, and it's a big fuck you to all the advice that say that eating this or that is better for your health... while that's bullshit; I agree with you, doctors are often misinformed. One of my boss-lawyers said his cardiologist found him a very bad blood pressure, and he recommends him to eat less, less of this, less of that... I wanted to tell him, it's your way of dealing with stress that is the first factor for your blood pressure. Not what you eat... this man already restricts himself a lot in eating. But unfortunately, I know he'll rather listen to his doctor than me... because it's this type of people, who listens to "authority."

 

I'm very interested in where you're getting these facts from, because this is simply not true. Of course what you eat has impact on your health? And how come that you believe that you know more about blood pressure than a cardiologist?

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Hermione
16 hours ago, The Bellie said:

So, just because we're able to make the thought that we could, biologically speaking, eat only vegetable food, means we should do so?

If your health, finances, access to alternatives and whatever other relevant factors allow it then yes of course it's better to stop or decrease supporting the meat industry that causes damage to the environment and suffering to animals than not. Nobody here is saying there aren't factors that prevent many people from doing it, or even as far as I can see insisting that anyone has to do it even if they easily could. Everyone can make their own choice on this issue just like any other but that doesn't mean morality isn't relevant to the decision. Recycling if you can, avoiding products made by child labour if you can, avoiding beauty products tested on animals if you can, avoiding factory farmed meat if you can and any number of other consumer choices are only optional and not able to be done by everyone but they're still choices that can have a positive impact on the world and that involve considering things from a moral standpoint. Saying someone made a morally good choice (that they were fortunate enough to be in a position to make) ≠ saying someone is a morally superior person or everyone who couldn't or didn't make the same choice is bad 

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The Bellie
On 11/27/2018 at 8:00 AM, Göta said:

I'm very interested in where you're getting these facts from, because this is simply not true. Of course what you eat has impact on your health? And how come that you believe that you know more about blood pressure than a cardiologist?

What we eat have an impact on our health, but in much less ways than what we are given to read everywhere. And you're going to read all kind of theories going in all directions about what you should eat... while food deficit, in quality and quantity, is the first factor to health trouble when it comes to nutrition. Blood pressure is not a direct result of what you eat. I'm not saying it necessarily counts for nothing, but in my lawyer's case, he should stop thinking about eating less, and that he is too fat and that it causes his problems, he should be cooler with himself, stop preventing himself from eating this or that (what he does already) and work on his way of dealing with stress. He is a permanently stressed out guy. And that has a lot more effect on your health than anything you can eat. For some people, the way they eat would contribute to blood pressure (too much coffee, alcohol, but also lack of fat in their food...) but in my lawyer's case, it's not that. Doctors have knowledge on the human body, diseases and the treatments, but the truth is we only know very little about the role of nutrition, the medical industry is obsessed with it and tries to convince people there's something they need to change about their food, while the problem most often doesn't lie there. I get my assertions from what I've experienced, saw and read, and I wouldn't trade my little knowledge and experience about it with a cardiologist's, because I think most doctors are as misinformed as anybody else when it comes to nutrition. 

My other boss-lawyer is also saying he's too fat and should eat less, he hangs out with restrictive girlfriends, and the current one also tells him he is too fat, and that he should stop eating meat for instance, while meat and animal food fat has nothing to do with body fat, but anyways, that's the kind of things he will believe... but what I see is, despite how much he smokes, he's looking much more healthy than his girlfriend, he has always been a little bit "fat" and he is healthy that way, he needs to stop listening to those types of remarks. I think one of the main reasons he's still doing well with his health is that he keeps eating what he likes, despite the stupid things he gets to hear about his weight and food. He's just too stressed out by his work to try and change anything about what he eats, and I just think, good for him, he doesn't need that. He only needs to quit smoking.

On 11/27/2018 at 1:20 PM, Hermione said:

If your health, finances, access to alternatives and whatever other relevant factors allow it then yes of course it's better to stop or decrease supporting the meat industry that causes damage to the environment and suffering to animals than not. Nobody here is saying there aren't factors that prevent many people from doing it, or even as far as I can see insisting that anyone has to do it even if they easily could. Everyone can make their own choice on this issue just like any other but that doesn't mean morality isn't relevant to the decision. Recycling if you can, avoiding products made by child labour if you can, avoiding beauty products tested on animals if you can, avoiding factory farmed meat if you can and any number of other consumer choices are only optional and not able to be done by everyone but they're still choices that can have a positive impact on the world and that involve considering things from a moral standpoint. Saying someone made a morally good choice (that they were fortunate enough to be in a position to make) ≠ saying someone is a morally superior person or everyone who couldn't or didn't make the same choice is bad 

I agree, I don't support the meat industry the way it works and I'm conscious about what I buy. But I want to be adaptable. When I'm home I often love to cook vegetables, but when I go out with friends and we go eating somewhere I don't want to avoid any place, I don't care where we come in and what we eat, and even if I sometimes follow people in a McDonald, it doesn't bother me. I refuse to cut myself socially for food matters, whatever I think of meat industry.

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Adorkable
7 minutes ago, The Bellie said:

What we eat have an impact on our health, but in much less ways than what we are given to read everywhere. And you're going to read all kind of theories going in all directions about what you should eat... while food deficit, in quality and quantity, is the first factor to health trouble when it comes to nutrition. Blood pressure is not a direct result of what you eat. I'm not saying it necessarily counts for nothing, but in my lawyer's case, he should stop thinking about eating less, and that he is too fat and that it causes his problems, he should be cooler with himself, stop preventing himself from eating this or that (what he does already) and work on his way of dealing with stress. He is a permanently stressed out guy. And that has a lot more effect on your health than anything you can eat. For some people, the way they eat would contribute to blood pressure (too much coffee, alcohol, but also lack of fat in their food...) but in my lawyer's case, it's not that. Doctors have knowledge on the human body, diseases and the treatments, but the truth is we only know very little about the role of nutrition, the medical industry is obsessed with it and tries to convince people there's something they need to change about their food, while the problem most often doesn't lie there. I get my assertions from what I've experienced, saw and read, and I wouldn't trade my little knowledge and experience about it with a cardiologist's, because I think most doctors are as misinformed as anybody else when it comes to nutrition. 

My other boss-lawyer is also saying he's too fat and should eat less, he hangs out with restrictive girlfriends, and the current one also tells him he is too fat, and that he should stop eating meat for instance, while meat and animal food fat has nothing to do with body fat, but anyways, that's the kind of things he will believe... but what I see is, despite how much he smokes, he's looking much more healthy than his girlfriend, he has always been a little bit "fat" and he is healthy that way, he needs to stop listening to those types of remarks. I think one of the main reasons he's still doing well with his health is that he keeps eating what he likes, despite the stupid things he gets to hear about his weight and food. He's just too stressed out by his work to try and change anything about what he eats, and I just think, good for him, he doesn't need that. He only needs to quit smoking.

 

I have to disagree with you on this. What we choose to eat has tremendous effects on all aspects of our health. Blood pressure can be affected by many food choices, foods with high salt content or fried foods will increase blood pressure while lean meats and fruits and vegetables can help lower it. Also, weight is a huge factor with blood pressure, the more overweight you are the greater chances of high blood pressure. And yes I agree that stress can lead to high blood pressure as well. There are a ton of health issues that are related to a poor diet including diabetes, heart disease, liver disease, kidney disease, sleep apnea, osteoarthritis and even certain types of cancer. So yes, the health industry is most definitely obsessed with nutrition because it can affect so much of our lives. If people would eat a sensible diet, whether it includes meat or not would help to reduce the occurrences of so many types of health issues. 

Doctors will have to have taken years of courses in nutrition to get their degree. So any doctor, including a cardiologist, would have alot more knowledge on how nutrition affects a body than anyone who isn't trained in the field. A cardiologist may not be a total expert in nutrition, but they most definitely would be an expert on how nutrition affects the heart.  

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The Bellie
9 minutes ago, Grubby Poop said:

I have to disagree with you on this. What we choose to eat has tremendous effects on all aspects of our health. Blood pressure can be affected by many food choices, foods with high salt content or fried foods will increase blood pressure while lean meats and fruits and vegetables can help lower it. I agree, but I don't think eating fried foods once in a while will keep blood pressure high. People tend to get obsessed with what they eat as if they could control how their body's reactions to it, while I don't think it ever really works this way. Also, weight is a huge factor with blood pressure, the more overweight you are the greater chances of high blood pressure. Maybe statistically, but for instance my mother is rather thin and eats "healthy" and tends to have a slightly high blood pressure, while my dad who is older, obese and eats crap, doesn't. So it depends on people, weight is an aspect of your physical condition but barely the cause to blood pressure, and it's not even necessarily a problem to be slightly obese. And yes I agree that stress can lead to high blood pressure as well. There are a ton of health issues that are related to a poor diet including diabetes, heart disease, liver disease, kidney disease, sleep apnea, osteoarthritis and even certain types of cancer. So yes, the health industry is most definitely obsessed with nutrition because it can affect so much of our lives. If people would eat a sensible diet, whether it includes meat or not would help to reduce the occurrences of so many types of health issues. Yes people should be informed but ill for information tends to become obsession these days, and that isn't better for their health either. People can often get better with all the problems you've mentioned with more care for what they eat, but they also can get easily lost in the various diet recommendations surrounding us, and that are often wrong. And sometimes people can have a cancer or another severe disease without it being related at all to their food. I think food is rarely a crucial factor, when doctors see someone with a health issue and this someone is slightly fat, they will often tell this person to be careful to what they eat, while it could have nothing to do with it. 

Doctors will have to have taken years of courses in nutrition to get their degree. Yes, but I'm sure to trust these courses in nutrition. So any doctor, including a cardiologist, would have alot more knowledge on how nutrition affects a body than anyone who isn't trained in the field. A cardiologist may not be a total expert in nutrition, but they most definitely would be an expert on how nutrition affects the heart. I'm far from sure of that. I think nowadays medicine is not very sure of itself when it comes to nutrition. Doctors who drift away from what they've learned will find other theories about nutrition and health, they may be all contradictory, but they all prove we shouldn't be so sure to know what happens if you eat this or that... 

 

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Hermione
56 minutes ago, The Bellie said:

I agree, I don't support the meat industry the way it works and I'm conscious about what I buy. But I want to be adaptable. When I'm home I often love to cook vegetables, but when I go out with friends and we go eating somewhere I don't want to avoid any place, I don't care where we come in and what we eat, and even if I sometimes follow people in a McDonald, it doesn't bother me. I refuse to cut myself socially for food matters, whatever I think of meat industry.

Just being vegetarian I haven't found it difficult/isolating, because I don't mind being in places with a lot of meat or McDonalds etc, and pretty much everywhere here has at least some vegetarian options these days. I've been vegetarian for over 20 years and have really never had a problem with eating out. But each to their own!

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I don't care

"You people really overreacted to the Amanda photo. Wow."

"my ex gf & I broke up 3yrs ago but she still posts ab me on tumblr & tries to spread false rumours ab me. some days I just wanna spew some shit that would ruin her life but I keep my distance & try not to care. ngl pisses me offf"

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