But there's gotta be more to it than a few fables.

Plus Technology has advanced SO SO much since you were in school.

Hell its advanced a fuckload since i was in school, i think their readings may be getting a little more reliable, don't you?

Because it makes no sense for the logical mind to believe in something backed by no proof. The details given in the bible do nothing to shed any evidential light on anything, and many of the stories are copies of other stories from other religions that are older than it is. The bible is not for evidence, the bible is for guidance, and after hearing and reading the same stories over, and over again, it becomes pretty clear what a wonderful bunch of contradictions it is.

Basically though, I do not believe in things without any shred of evidence whatsoever, and I do not believe in imaginary things (except numbers). I believe in myself, and the natural laws of the world around me.

What evidence is there that shows someone should?

It will take too long. I will answer it sometime tomorrow. I gotta go to bed. My son has an early dentist appt to get a new front tooth.

Well thanks, but I'm never over it. Alcoholism is a proven disease. I will always be an alcoholic. Every day I make a decision to drink, or not to drink. At least for the past 70 days I've choosen NOT to drink, only by the grace of God. As long as I stay obediant to His will, I will remain sober, and know peace and serenity. But the minute I fall back to temptation(satan), I'll be right back where I left off, and believe me, it wasn't pretty.



Hey Beth, have I told you my husband is a dentist. Good luck tomorrow. I've got to go to bed myself. It's way to late for this old lady.

Well hell Mary, you coulda saved me a few thousand in dental bills this year.

Im just curious about: are you psychologist or psychiatrist? I mean you talk about minds like you studied it really well, in one way
Seems like you are really sure about your opinions in a academic and scientific way, but just for curiosity, do you have experience about to work with people minds? or are you just saying what you think or you read?
Im asking because some people here is giving their opinion based in their life's experience, and even if we think they are right or wrong, they lived it, so its important.

I have been reading the last pages and its really cool to see a good discussion.

Im doc, and I have been working in hospitals for 15 years, and with people in their limits: intensive unit care and trauma unit and I saw that many docs are 'wrong' when they see that person in the bed as one brain, one liver, one bone and not as a human being with a hole body/mind/spirit/fears/hopes/experience....

People and their minds and heart are really more complex than any textbook can show to us. Believe me: we don't have evidence to all things and it doesn't prove that they don't exist or are not real.

If we really should believe just in ourselves and our minds, so we should believe on what we just feel about things


Anyway, its just my opinion after so many years seeing people living really tragical and hard moments and how their beliefes helped them. I can't prove nothing, just can tell what I see and feel about. Im not a religious person, but as posted some pages ago, I have my 'own' god hehe

I loved what you had to say. All I know is that God is working in MY life, and in the end, that IS all that matters. I see "proof" of that every day. As long as I have stayed on the right path, I have been blessed beyond belief. My prayers have been answered, in Gods time and in His way. For example, here is a recent incident that I am so very grateful for.

One of my many prayer is that my 15 year old son will be strengthened in the face of temptation, and to have the strength, courage and wisdom to say NO to drugs and alcohol. Over the past year or so the kids have got busted for various infractions. Well last weekend a group of his friends got busted in a big way. One of the girls, age 16, got a DUI after having her license for only 2 weeks. The others have various suspensions. When I asked him why he wasn't with them, since they are his very good friends, he said"Something didn't feel right. Are you proud of me mom"?

That is all the proof I need to see that God is working in our lives. That is just one example, but a very big one. I will continue to pray that he stays on the right path. I don't need scientific proof, only faith will suffice.

I have studied some psych, but I wouldn't say I'm an expert or anything on it. Most of my opinions on the mind come from me, mixed with the little I've learned (read, heard, observed) over the years. I talk about things in an academic/scientific way because that's how I look at the world. I look at the biological systems, the sociology of interaction, the psychology of people. I don't experience things, and then attribute them to what I believe, I take what I experience and analyze it and see what I can learn from it.

The problem I have with personal experience is that it is very subjective. Someone could say they feel that they see proof of God because of "x" and "y." But if I saw the same evidence, I would automatically think, well there's probably a scientific explanation for why "x" and "y" is happening/happened. It just seems to me, those that feel they need God to get through their lives, that it's not God who's helping them, it's themselves, they just think God is helping them. In my opinion, with people who believe stuff like that, God is a placebo. There is no god, there is no afterlife, there is nothing, but the placebo effect they get from creating those abstractions in their mind helps them along. They are attributing qualities to something that cannot have qualities, because you cannot attribute something to nothing. If it helps them out wonderful, as long as whatever "helps" them, doesn't affect me.

to each their own
lets leave it at that

agreed.. personally religion is not for me.. but i would never criticise anyone for being religious. one thing i do believe in is freedom to believe in what you want

Reading the Bible is some of the best proof you could ever have that it's all a load of shit.



It becomes a disease when you have drank to the point that your body has become dependent on it to function normally. Once you have forced your body into normal function, it is no longer a disease. AA's mentality makes no sense to me either, embracing a higher power. If I were trying to quit an addiction I would empower myself by knowing it is up to me and absolutely no one else to quit. If you believe God is what keeps you from drinking, then you may as well just start again, because you have no confidence in your own ability.

If you don't want to drink that's great. But it sure is a fucking annoyance every time I hear "Don't drink next to me, I have a disease".

Why? We could say that for absolutely anything. Then we would never debate anything at all. And how boring and fucking stupid would that be.

It would bug you if the church told you how to live, so why is it ok for you to slag on other people for living how they wish?

Because that's what a fucking debate is. If 2 people think 2 different things, they generally try to find out who is right. This thread has not gone on for 50 fucking pages because we have all been saying "to each his own". This thread is made of debates, and this world is made of debates. 75% of this forum would vanish into thin air if the world was a place where we respected opinions.

Arguing is fun, get it through your head!

Arguing is fun, intolerance is annoying.

Thanks dear and thanks for share your experience


Thanks for reply my question

I, like you, see things in a scientific way, because of my work and because what I study to be able to treat people. I use chemistry, biology, etc to understand human body and how it works.
But when I went from Uni/textbooks to real life/hospitals, I realized that it was much more complex and I tried to understand the human being, reading a lot about psychology, behavior, anthropology.

You say personal experience is very subjective; yeah, to researchers and statistcs it is..... to people who live it, no. Evidence is something good to police and to detectives, to people who make statistics.....if you read those journals, the scientifc ones, about psychological researchs, you will see that their kind of 'evidence' is very subjective. Its not about numbers or images or something material....these days we can even use scans to see the brain function while people meditate (have a really good book about it with Dalai Lama and many famous Docs and researchers ). But a lot of things can not be convert in numbers/images/ reactions/material.

In fact I totally agree with you about that we have the power to change things.... but life has many sides and a lot of them we can't see, we can just feel them....it doesn't make things not real.
Many times we need some 'external' thing to help us to bring out our power and its valid. I don't see it as a wrong thing.

You say "There is no god, there is no afterlife, there is nothing" .... Can you prove that? do you have any evidence about it? .... You know, we don't have just black and white; in the middle of it, we have lots of grays and beside it, the colors


You say "I don't experience things, and then attribute them to what I believe"... but you say "I take what I experience and analyze it and see what I can learn from it" .... so why do you say "The problem I have with personal experience is that it is very subjective"? ...if your analysis is 'right' why the others are not right? Because they are not scientific?
You have really good points and I even agree with you in many things, but I think that my experience showed to me that we can't 'see' everything so easy. If you could see the moment when a person die, many times, you probably would think that we are much more than that body even that we can't get any scientific-evidence about that.
Somethings we just understand when we live them. No one book can tell us about and I respect people experiences.

I think to the people who live it, it is very subjective to as well. The difference between a psychological study and its subjectivity/validity, vs. someone who is attributing something to an outside force is that one follows a method and is compared to other evidence and analyzed before people take in into account with any sort of finality. Science is humble in that respect, they know their research could be wrong, or that some new development could change things, but they accept that, and they keep on the quest. Conversely, you cannot compare what you have perceived as an intervention from an outside force to anything, but yet you are shielded from criticism because you just "feel it" or have faith that it happened the way you said. That's absolutely crazy to me. I don't believe everything I'm taught, and don't think everything in the textbooks are right, but at least there is evidence of something, and thats more than I can say for faith.


Can I sit here and prove definitively that there is no god? No. Can anyone? No. Can anything be proven 100%? No. But to the best of my knowledge, it makes zero sense to believe in something that as no evidence. Being unable to prove something doesn't exist doesn't give any credence to the idea that it does, despite what many say. I can't technically prove that I'm real, but to the best of my knowledge and evidence, I believe that I am. To me, it makes perfect sense that the idea of a god, to the believer of such a thing, is merely a placebo, because when you compare what happens with a placebo, to what people say they experience with a god, it is quite similar, don't you think? The mind creates the positive aspects of the placebo because your mind has been conditioned to think that little white pill will help you. Similarly, the mind of a believer has been taught that their god will help them and bring goodness and strength to them, because they have been condition to believe such things will happen.


Because a believer is not analyzing why something happened when they attribute it to an outside force like a god. They are merely taking an event that they believe wouldn't have happened without something else (because they have been conditioned to think this way), and attributing it to their god. They do not entertain the event that maybe they just did it all on their own and this "god" of theirs had absolutely nothing to do with it, because that is not how they're conditioned. The difference with that, than say if I was standing in a crosswalk and a car was about to hit me and some guy saved me, it's fairly obvious that the guy saved me and thats why I didn't die. Could their possibly have been an outside force acting upon that? Maybe. But what reason would I have to think that? If I saw a man who was about to get hit by a car and I could easily save him, I would make my own decision to do it. So because I know that my mind can make that decision itself without an outside force, why should I attribute that quality to an outside force when it happens to me? I am using experience, yes, but with that experience, I take it analyze the situation to come up with answers for the process behind that experience.

Here's the thing. you dont try to figure out who is right, you cuss people out for what they believe and try to shove your beliefs down their throat. It gets REALLY old.

You're the (supposed) milf, and you talk about things being old!

HAHAHAHHA youre so fucking funny!!!!


Not.

Now YOU really struck a nerve. I knew when I used the word disease someone would have an argument. You really are an incensitive, arrogant, ignorant, critical, judgemental person. I'll pray for you to lose some of those qualities, along with intolerance. If I followed my will, I would still be drinking. Following Gods will is the hardest task in the world. For example. Love thy enemy, and forgive those who tresspass against us. Because I'm finding it very hard to resist saying what I would really like to say to you. I'll just let you use your imagination instead.

Your a better woman than I Mare. I should follow your example.

does anyone know anything about wicca?

I agree with you on it, about the method, but I will say something to you: I already was teacher in University and I was in contact with lots of teachers, researchers and etc. They are not humble at all, science is not humble, believe on me. Many researchs are made in a not so honest way and many times they 'drive' to go to some place and to prove something that is interesting to community and to success of the person. I got totally disapointed with those community.


Im not comparing, because its not my point. They are not things to be compared. And as you don't believe in faith, I don't believe in all that have some evidence.
We are not comparing, because its not it.
Its just two different ways to view things I don' look for evidences to believe in something or to know that its right or real. Like you, I believe in what I learn and in my analisys.
I don't believe in something because someone in a very 'restricted and methodic' way proved that it is right/real or whatever. Honestly?! I really don't care about it. I read and I study to be able to do my work with patients and even with that, my experience showed to me that sometimes I should follow my intuition and go to a different direction from the usual/right one.



Just as you believe in it this way, many people think the same about their 'knowledge and evidence'....


Yeah, about the placebo story, yeah I can understand what you are saying and even agree with you in some, I just could not compare the idea of a god and its impact in people lifes with a white pill in a study, but anyway.
As you say we are conditioned to think that little white pill will help us. But its just valid to our culture/society. It not works in anothers societies. If you read anthropologists like Foucalt you would understand a lot about Science and their not so honest methods to make us 'believe'. Try to read "The Birth of the Clinic: An Archaeology of Medical Perception" and "Archaeology of Knowledge".



I totally agree with you on it, but I just understand that have another ways to see this event. I mean, I believe we choose our path all the time, but I know its my cultural/social/personal/conditioned way to see life, that is all. It not means that is the best or the right way to understand events and life. So I understand that people is free to to see the same event in another way and even that I don't agree, I can't say they are wrong. You know what I mean?!

I think you have a very interesting opinion, interesting and intelligent. I even agree with you in some points. But for sure we don't have the same view of this. You are very based in what you think, to you it is the right way to understand things, you believe on it. Great, I really like people like you, that defend their points of view in an intelligent and rich way.

But I see thing in a different way. Im really open to many ways to see and to believe in life. After lots of experiences in my own life and in my work, I just know that I don't have much convictions about what it is and what that is

I have really few rules to follow and they are just about to respect people and to respect myself. Other than that, Im an open mind and heart and I follow my feelings and what I learned in everything and anything. Life is really surprising and Im not close in one way of view things, I learn everyday.

I really appreciate your opinions and I see that you know about what you are talking, what is great

I think we've got your point of view towards how full of "shit" it is.
That's been established from your posts many times.

Let's debate about something real, instead of ranting on about how everyone else is wrong.

a small amount




HAHA fuck you John
I damn this thread to hell, purgatory, hades, and Michael Jackson's bedroom

I'm a methodist Christian.

That would be a new concept that I doubt he could grasp.

If you want to say something to me then fucking say it. Feel free to type for your imaginary friend too.



Stop being such a goddamn middle school emo kid poser.



If we were debating about something real then we wouldn't talk about religion.

Now that wouldn't be Christian of me would it.This morning at my Big Book A.A. study, we read the chapter "We Agnostics". Man, how ironic and appropriate was that. It made me realize that I too am still really intolerant of others points of view at times. I try not to push my beliefs on others, but I guess subconciously that is what I'm doing. I mean people on this site are from all walks of life, all over the world, with different life experiances and points of view. Sometimes I forget that.

I was wondering what your views on Jehova's Witnesses are? Or if there are any on this site?

I personally find the whole thing an intreging and strange subject. Its like another religion, but its like a modification of another.

I remember last year, some Jehova's Witnesses came to our door at Christmas and started talking about blood transfusions (i think) and they were going on about how they are wrong and stuff. My mum was just being polite and pretending to listen but then these 2 strangers started sucking up to her. "What absolutely wonderful children you have..." etc. and then my mum said, "Yes and they wouldnt have had a mother if i hadnt had a blood transfusion..." and then shut the door on them

had any callers?? what are your views??

I don't know much about the "religion"
I just know they're annoying bible bangers and door knockers

Maybe this could be put into the religion thread?

I don't care about them to be honest one way or another.

Another ridiculous cult among the millions of them.

its quite difficult to suss them and bite back with a really good point and win cus they are such fanatics and have an excuse for everything. they probably acted out front door scenes in their freetime

This isn't really religion overall, but what you believe about an afterlife or the lack there of is usually intertwined, so here's what I believe:

I believe that once you die it'll be the same as before you were born, BUT because of the 6-12 minutes of brain activity that continues after the rest of the body shuts down, I think that whatever it is you sincerely believe will happen, will. Why? You're basically in a dream state. If you expect to see Heaven; you most likely will. If you expect to be reincarnated; that's most likely what you'll see. I think this explains why people who have died and come back claim they've seen "heaven" or "hell" or anything else in the form of an afterlife; because they're still in a dream state which will most likely take on whatever they truley have faith in and believe will happen in the coming of death. It could seem like much longer than 6-12 minutes, though. Like how you can have a long, intense dream that seems to drag on for hours, and then you wake up and it's only been 3 minutes real time.

The question is: Because of the fractional terms we use to perceive time, would this dream-like-state seem to last an eternity due to the fact that it's all we have left?

whoooooooooooa

Wow, I should shart believeing some crazy shit then

thats a really interesting theory

I'm not really a religous person, but I try to keep an open mind. But I think believing in a 'god' is taking religion a bit far.

That's about all I know too, but they have always been very pleasant. It is just a bit to pushy. The way to evangelalize people isn't by knocking on doors silicitating it, but rather how you live your life and the effect it has on people. If you are living life "right",and reflect peace and joy and kindness, people can see that, and maybe even want it for themselves.

I don't mind them. i used to think that they're weird but then i met this girl who is jehovas witnesser and now she's my bestfriend.

Last time they came to my door I started counter responding to the with quotes from the Book of John and it freaked them out so they left.

I am christian catholic. My father obliges me to go to church every Sunday. If he doesn't force me I would go there more willingly, not once a week but I think I'll go often to the church!!! I don't agree on some issues in which the church is closed (gay.... etc), but I think that religion is helpful to become better people and to live in a better way. Lately I am somewhat in crisis ... but nevertheless continued to believe in the Catholic God. I respect all people regardless of their religion.

Sorry me if I did not express in a proper English ..

Being agnostic is sweet. I don't have to go to church early in the morning or on weekends, I don't have to pray to make sure I don't spend eternity in Hell, and I don't have to unify my beliefs about stuff to be compatible to my religion.

Not every religion requires or recamends you do those things... but being Agnostic has been sweet and works for me, also, so more power to ya

I don't HAVE to go to church. I GET to go to church.

Most of the time when you remember dreams it's only because you woke up and had the chance to recall that memory. If you dream right before you die, then it likely won't last at all, you may be conscious at the time but what does it matter if you're dead.


Yes but there are retarded parents who drag their kids to church as well.

I hardly think taking your kids to church if you believe in God is retarded.

I think the way you communicate is retarded.

Parents have no right to impose beliefs on children. A good parent educates their kid with an objective view of the world, so each one can be an individual and decide for themselves what the truth is.

Yes a good parent does. But for the record a parent in fact does have the right to teach their kid whatever they want. Nor does it mean they shouldnt take them to church.