wow, thats really dumb

unfortunately most of his comments are.

I don't think people need it though, that's what I mean. I think most people are much more capable than they give themselves credit for, and they limit themselves without even realizing it.

And I agree with you that people are WAY more capable and many limit themselves with realizing it. Thats even sadder.

Well good, glad we're on the same page.

hahaha

Think of it like this. Everyone is capable of it, yeah. However, they need something to help them realize it. Like the quote "Through god, all things are possible". All that is doing is helping people realize their capabilities. Similar to how music has helped shape me to who I am and what I stand for, and I don't think I'm a bad person. So, it's worked, as far as I know.

Some people just can't go out and realize their own potential on their own. They need someone, or something to help guide them into their own destiny. There's nothing wrong with that. Not everyone can do that kinda thing alone, and I think it's nice there are things out there like that to help people who have that problem. I was one myself, and music helped guide me and show me what I was capable of doing. I can honestly say music has saved my life; no emotional exaggerations, it's how I truly feel. Some people just need that extra push.

well kinda.

The difference is, I dont think there is a single thing wrong with having faith in God.

I'm not disagreeing that some consciously need it to realize their potential, because they have set blocks in their mind unconciously. I'm just saying they don't really need it, because their mind has the potential to do it on its own. I know this sounds rather redundant, but I hope you get what I mean.


I love the human mind too much to find nothing wrong with it. Comes with the territory I reside in, I guess.

So are you saying someone who believes in something other than just themselves has something wrong with their mind?

No, no, I understand. You're saying people who seek some type of guidance never needed it in the first place. I do agree with on that. But, the mind is a complex thing. Feelings and emotions dictate peoples lives. And, the feeling of being lost and alone can make one feel worthless and apathetic. To where, finding faith in something, anything, can take those negative feelings away, helping them find their way in life. Y'know ?

No, I'm saying they are insulting the capability of their mind.


Oh, yeah, but then there is something overriding the brains natural function, which is different.

Not to mention some people have good reason to feel worthless and apathetic. So many parents and spouses beat their kids and spouse down, constantly criticize and basically tell them they are worthless. Then it happens again at school, and in the workplace. Its not unusual to me that people need something more than themselves.

Yeah. life in general can make you feel nothing but negative feelings, and think negative thoughts. Something like that is hard to clear up. Which is where the faith in music, religion, etc. comes in. It helps them. And, when you have all that, you can't just "find yourself". It's impossible. I know how powerful the human mind is, but with those kinda thoughts and feelings, it's hard to move forward.

I believe people can overcome those things on their own, even though it may be much harder. I don't mind people finding comfort in things, but I will never agree they people need such things.

Well, it depends on how you look at the term "needing it".

Maybe they need that feeling of comfort to find their way in life. Which, in that case, they would need it to find their way. Regardless of what it is.

People need alcohol in that sense too, but that's not OK. So why should anything else?

Find comfort in such things is fine, but to build your life around/with it, or depend on it is not OK.

I think that people do 'need' certain things at points within their life to get through hard times, be that music, god etc, we are humans and have needs to be fullfilled, when we can't find the thing we need to geth through that period within ourselves then maybe for a while we reflect those feelings onto other things.


I write poetry, i listen to music it helps get me through, i am strong person i have been through shit, yet i still need things at times, that doesn't make me weak it makes me human.

exactly.


exactly again.

And what you just described, is what I would consider comfort, not dependence, which is what I was a problem with. Finding comfort in things doesn't make you weak, no, I agree.

Honestly tho Tom, it shouldnt matter to you if people need something else. Its their choice, just as its yours not to. If that makes sense.

It doesn't matter to me, as long as what they depend on, doesn't affect me. Religions affect me, that's why I have a problem with them. Personal faith doesn't bother me one bit, if that's how you want to live you life, go ahead and believe in Jesus or a stapler, I could care less. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't matter.

Don't you find that we all have an 'interest/obsession/addiction' in something, many people are obsessed/addicted to/with something, be it cigarettes, alcohol, sports, music, movie stars, reading, etc,..


Why do we create the false gods for ourselves if we don't need anything, why do humans always come back to the same qestions, 'why are we here', 'who am i' 'what is my purpose in life'. We feel insecure we find things to make us feel better.

Some people can just control their addictions/obsessions and needs better than others.

No, that's not what I meant.

See, what I'm trying to say is, in order to get your life in order and start down the right path, you have to be able to accept life for what it is. You need to accept your self for who and what you are. But, it's hard to do that alone. Theoretically, no you don't need it (religion, music, poetry, etc.). But, when negative feelings engulfe your though process, you can't move forward without some type of help. Without something to be there with you and continue giving you the strength and motivation to carry through with your life, you'll crumble and fall back into the dark pit that some people have a hard time escaping. In that sense, yes you do need it. Not everyone does need it, but alot of people do need it.

I'll respond after I go take my final, so be back in a couple hours.

Oooooooooh good luck

NO you will respond NOW.

hah. jk.

good luck.

This has been a fun discussion.

I do find that we all have things like that, but that doesn't make them healthy, right, or needed, which is what I'm talking about.

We don't create false gods, because if we did, people would call us crazy (ie. Scientologist's). Some people feel insecure about the world, and go to an all knowing god to find such answers. Do they have any idea if the answers they get from books pertaining to that god are true? Not really, but it makes them feel better, so they do it anyway. Do they need to do that? Absolutely not. But it's their choice, and as long as what they believe doesn't affect me, I'm good.


Like I said, those people can have those things if they want them, despite if they are logical, or healthy, but I will never agree that they need them.

If someone feels like they need alcohol to deal with their life, does that mean they really need that alcohol, or are they addicted to that crutch?
If someone feels like they need a lucky rabbits foot to deal with their life, does that mean they really need that lucky rabbits foot, or are they just addicted to that crutch?
How is that different from someone who feels as though they need a god to deal with their life? Do they really need that god, or are they just addicted to that crutch?

Having a drink after a hard day at work isn't a bad thing.
Having a lucky rabbits foot make you feel lucky, isn't a bad thing.
Having a god that you have a bit of comfort in, isn't too bad either.

However, if they dictate your life, you have a problem. If they affect anyone other than you, then there is something really wrong.

I have a catholic family and I grew up in the middle of their beliefs and its fine to me....once I got my way, I became budhist. Nowadays, I could say I believe in life and how precious it is

I don't know if god exist, but for sure I believe in a kind of energy that link all of us. I like to believe in god, thats the truth. Not in a religious way, but in a sweet way...

When I was young I used to say that I didn't believe in god or whatever it was, and I had some reasons to feel like that....when I went to Uni, in my first anatomy class, I just realized that god or some energy for sure should exist!! The first time I saw a dead body, I opened it, I saw a brain and I cut it, I just realized that I was not made just by flesh and blood or chemical reactions.

After 15 years working in intensive care unit and emergency hospitals, with all kind of diseases, from trauma to aids, I could say that life can be really hard and many people can't go thru somethings without to believe in something.... it can be right or wrong, good or bad, cool or not, its not the point; have times in life that these kind of things give hope, when you have no one to help you, to care for you, to love and to be with you...when you don't have any hope in someone or in something, yeah, such kind of thing as 'god' can help a lot and believe in my experience, it helps.

I pray everyday and thanks that 'god' because Im healthy, lucky, loved and have a good life and it makes me feel really good and in peace to help people, at work or around. And when things are not so good to me, I just know that life is like that and I try to keep my mind clear and my heart open to live these bad moments.


I really don't know if god exist and I don't have a kind of religion, but I like to believe in 'my own god'

How is that wrong?
Just because someone follows every single practice of any particular thing, that means it's wrong?
I'm dictated by certain actions and things -- as are religious people.
It gives people hope, and often cases reason.
People wouldn't be the same, and perhaps empty if they didn't have that necessity -- especially religious people.

You are letting something control your life that has no qualities that should allow that. You control your life, you do.
Your life is dictated by the choices you make based on what options are presented to you in this reality.
I have never said finding comfort in things is wrong, I said dependency is. There is a very, very large difference there.
People would be who they are, and people wouldn't be empty if they didn't create that dependency in the first place.

Having a dependency/addiction of any kind is a poison to your mind. Your mind, your most precious possession, is being influenced by things that it shouldn't, and I think that's wrong.

So you're saying it's wrong to depend on things?

By false gods i was referring to hero worship in other human beings instead of ' a god' people always seem to need to worship something, they turn their backs on god, don't believe in god yet treat other human beings as if they were a god..

Am i making sense?

I'm starting my own religion. Yajfeism.

My holy book is a Bill Bryson compendium, worshipping is done however and whenever I feel like, and my ritual prayer is "Thank fuck for that".

Sign up now!

Depends on the level of dependency.

If you find comfort in something, like a superstition, alcohol, poetry, music, a god, balloons, or anything else. That's OK.
If you are dependent on those things to live your life or make decisions (aka, addiction), then it is wrong in my opinion, yes.


As long as they aren't dependent on that person to live their life and make decisions.

You can substitute whatever you want in there, it doesn't matter. No matter what, it boils down to what I keep saying.

Yes it is, because everything is temporary, and the greater your attachment, the greater you suffer when you lose it.

I don't see how the god part would be wrong.
Some people look to him for salvation, and if that's what makes them happy, and they depend on that, then I don't see the problem.

so you're not attached to your family, friends, pets? the odd material possession? you could say that about most things. don't do them, because you'll suffer when you lose them.

i'm not talking about religion here, just talking in general.

And if someone thought drinking themselves to death would bring salvation? Is there a problem there?

We all form attachments whether consciously or subconsciously its a fact of life, there's nothing you can do about it, when you fall in love you become somewhat dependant on that person, hell lots of people are obsessed with their other halves, sometimes it lasts sometimes you get your heart broken, its life.

So it happens anyway you cannot stop it from happening.

Now there I concur.
Not with the god part, however.

I would consider them comfort, since they don't dictate how you make decisions.

that kills your liver though, and you die. it directly kills you. religion doesn't directly kill people.

Ok,

And if someone thought drinking themselves to basing their life around an unknown god until death would bring salvation? Is there a problem there?

Better?

Well, some people don't consider him "unknown."
Maybe he's unknown to you, but not to them.

It doesn't matter if it directly kills you or not, its the dependency that rules the decision that kills you, not the actual alcohol.

I am attached to them, but not to an absolute. There's a difference between love and dependency. You can love, and benefit greatly from it, but total attachment and addiction will lead to suffering. Even those who I love don't dictate every part of my life. There are many who I'd be miserable without, but my individuality still goes on regardless of my losses.

I have loved, lost, and I still have myself as I am. Not attachment, but absolute dictation of your lifestyle by something else, will destroy you.

They can show me the god is real?

Show me god isnt real.

They say "seeing is not always believing," which I agree to an extent.
Maybe I've never seen him, or even been "touched" by him at all, but apparently some people have.
They grow in dependence and they repent, and it refreshes their life.
If something makes someone happy, and if they depend on it, why is that wrong?
To them, God is forever.